7 ms·

I have no problem with any theft being a felony. You're stealing something. What makes "stealing less than $1k" more acceptable?

by ethbr0 5y ago

meragrin_ 5y ago
Any theft? Should a kid stealing a pack of bubble gum be labeled a felon?
- minikites 5y ago
  If we're talking about the USA, it depends on the color of the kid's skin. White juveniles are sent home with a stern verbal admonishment, black juveniles are sent to prison at the first opportunity.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    If you're gonna race bait at least provide proof.
    - minikites 5y ago
      Evidence is widely available and not difficult to locate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_incarceration_in_the_United_States#Criticisms_of_racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_incarceration_in_the_Uni... >In 1995, African American youths made up 12% of the population, but were arrested at rates double those for Caucasian youths. The trend towards adult adjudication has had implications for the racial make-up of the juvenile prison population as well. Minority youth tried in adult courts are much more likely to be sentenced to serve prison time than white youth offenders arrested for similar crimes. https://thecrimereport.org/2021/06/17/racial-disparities-persist-in-youth-justice-system-panel/ https://thecrimereport.org/2021/06/17/racial-disparities-per... >According to the Equal Justice Initiative, Black children are more than twice as likely as white kids to be arrested, even though they’re not committing more crimes, but because Black Kids are burdened by a “presumption of guilt and dangerousness,” which leads youth of color to have higher rates of stops, searches, violence, suspension, and disproportionate contact with the juvenile justice system. https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/racial-disparities-in-youth-commitments-and-arrests/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/racial-dispar... >As of 2013, black juveniles were more than four times as likely to be committed as white juveniles, Americans Indian juveniles were more than three times as likely, and Hispanic juveniles were 61 percent more likely. http://jaapl.org/content/early/2019/02/13/JAAPL.003828-19 http://jaapl.org/content/early/2019/02/13/JAAPL.003828-19 >However, research has documented the existence of racial disparity in the treatment of youth involved in the juvenile justice system for several decades. Studies from the 1980s and 1990s demonstrated that black juveniles were detained and confined at higher rates compared with white youth, and that black youth were more likely to be sent to correctional facilities compared with white youth, who were more likely to be sent to psychiatric hospitals. Additionally, recent studies have documented the continued trend of overrepresentation of minority youth in the juvenile justice system
      - CountDrewku 5y ago
        Proof of higher incarceration is not proof of unequal application of law. Additionally, sentencing takes into account past actions of the individual. Did they commit more crimes? Additionally if the whole racial bias theory is true (i don't agree that it is) then why should be incarcerating blacks less? I think the appropriate response would be to incarcerate white people more often.
        minikites 5y ago
        >Did they commit more crimes? As I quoted earlier: >Black children are more than twice as likely as white kids to be arrested, even though they’re not committing more crimes
        CountDrewku 5y ago
        I'm not seeing the data, please link it. All I see are some quotes referring to a Mother Jones article and a lot of assumptions. You need data showing white kids are stopped for crime and released to prove this, not just some random left leaning organizations that says it's true.
    - jessaustin 5y ago
      GP is not an example of "race baiting". You "conservatives" sure don't care to conserve the English language. https://splinternews.com/if-youre-confused-about-what-race-baiting-is-heres-a-b-1793848630 https://splinternews.com/if-youre-confused-about-what-race-b...
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>What makes "stealing less than $1k" more acceptable? The cost to the victim. Someone grabs a few unsecured tie downs off a truck at a truck stop that's a hundred bucks. Someone scraps some spools of copper stolen from a job site and it could be thousands. I think having a step function where you define all theft below a dollar amount as one type and then above as a different type is just legacy code from back in the day when it wasn't reasonable for the legislature to just say "the fine will be X-times the replacement cost of the goods or an equivalent jail time as determined by table Y in appendix Z" and expect the courts to be able to enforce it in an efficient enough manner. The fact that we we have basically two classes of crime that include both violent and nonviolent crime results in a lot of overlap where you can have some pretty bad misdemeanors and some pretty mild felonies all depending on legal technicalities.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Don't forget summary offenses. Some of them can carry jail time. In PA you can get 90 days in jail for having a dog get loose from your yard. Additionally, a second offense within one year becomes a misdemeanor.
giantg2 5y ago
Why not just make everything a felony then? The purpose of grading is to provide an appropriate punishment. I'm my state, the grading for retail theft starts low, but depends on the value of the item. After a few times it becomes a felony for anything, such as a man who was in the news as getting a felony for stealing a candy bar. If it's always going to be a felony with potential prison time, then people might think "why not steal that riding lawn mower if the punishment is the same as a candy bar". Same risk, might as well increase the reward.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Theft seems pretty clear. Either you pay for something, or you don't. If you don't, you know you didn't. I don't see how "light theft" is something we should tolerate. If we want to talk about humane solutions, carve out an exception for food theft. But nobody is stealing a $500 drill because they're starving for power tools. (And, this isn't just me expressing personal moral preferences. Theft is a tax on everyone who does pay for goods, via price increases)
  - giantg2 5y ago
    "Either you pay for something, or you don't. If you don't, you know you didn't." That's not exactly true. There can be items that are confusing, such as whether or not a bin or bucket comes with a lid. With the advent of self checkouts, it's also possible that someone rings up an item incorrectly just by accident, especially with non bar codes items. People could be prosecuted for this depending on the state's requirements. The burden of proof can be quiet low. "But nobody is stealing a $500 drill because they're starving for power tools." Here you are using $500 as an example. Do you feel the same if someone takes an extra 10 cent washer? "If we want to talk about humane solutions, carve out an exception for food theft." I don't think food theft should be an exception - just the same as the current grading tier. There are many programs and food banks that people can use to get food. What are your thoughts on other crimes with different gradings? Should assault always be a felony? Should speeding always be considered reckless endangerment? Again, the grading is supposed to provide an appropriate punishment based on the severity of the crime.
minikites 5y ago
>You're stealing something. Should we lock up everyone who downloaded an MP3 from Napster or Kazaa?
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Imho, fungible and zero-copy-cost goods is a much more nuanced topic.
stavros 5y ago
Because it's worth less. I don't understand how it's okay for punishment to have degrees but crime is black and white?

I have no problem with any theft being a felony. You're stealing something. What makes "stealing less than $1k" more acceptable?

by ethbr0 5y ago

I have no problem with any theft being a felony. You're stealing something. What makes "stealing less than $1k" more acceptable?

meragrin_ 5y ago

Any theft? Should a kid stealing a pack of bubble gum be labeled a felon?

minikites 5y ago
If we're talking about the USA, it depends on the color of the kid's skin. White juveniles are sent home with a stern verbal admonishment, black juveniles are sent to prison at the first opportunity.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  If you're gonna race bait at least provide proof.
  - minikites 5y ago
    Evidence is widely available and not difficult to locate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_incarceration_in_the_United_States#Criticisms_of_racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_incarceration_in_the_Uni... >In 1995, African American youths made up 12% of the population, but were arrested at rates double those for Caucasian youths. The trend towards adult adjudication has had implications for the racial make-up of the juvenile prison population as well. Minority youth tried in adult courts are much more likely to be sentenced to serve prison time than white youth offenders arrested for similar crimes. https://thecrimereport.org/2021/06/17/racial-disparities-persist-in-youth-justice-system-panel/ https://thecrimereport.org/2021/06/17/racial-disparities-per... >According to the Equal Justice Initiative, Black children are more than twice as likely as white kids to be arrested, even though they’re not committing more crimes, but because Black Kids are burdened by a “presumption of guilt and dangerousness,” which leads youth of color to have higher rates of stops, searches, violence, suspension, and disproportionate contact with the juvenile justice system. https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/racial-disparities-in-youth-commitments-and-arrests/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/racial-dispar... >As of 2013, black juveniles were more than four times as likely to be committed as white juveniles, Americans Indian juveniles were more than three times as likely, and Hispanic juveniles were 61 percent more likely. http://jaapl.org/content/early/2019/02/13/JAAPL.003828-19 http://jaapl.org/content/early/2019/02/13/JAAPL.003828-19 >However, research has documented the existence of racial disparity in the treatment of youth involved in the juvenile justice system for several decades. Studies from the 1980s and 1990s demonstrated that black juveniles were detained and confined at higher rates compared with white youth, and that black youth were more likely to be sent to correctional facilities compared with white youth, who were more likely to be sent to psychiatric hospitals. Additionally, recent studies have documented the continued trend of overrepresentation of minority youth in the juvenile justice system
    - CountDrewku 5y ago
      Proof of higher incarceration is not proof of unequal application of law. Additionally, sentencing takes into account past actions of the individual. Did they commit more crimes? Additionally if the whole racial bias theory is true (i don't agree that it is) then why should be incarcerating blacks less? I think the appropriate response would be to incarcerate white people more often.
      - minikites 5y ago
        >Did they commit more crimes? As I quoted earlier: >Black children are more than twice as likely as white kids to be arrested, even though they’re not committing more crimes
        CountDrewku 5y ago
        I'm not seeing the data, please link it. All I see are some quotes referring to a Mother Jones article and a lot of assumptions. You need data showing white kids are stopped for crime and released to prove this, not just some random left leaning organizations that says it's true.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    GP is not an example of "race baiting". You "conservatives" sure don't care to conserve the English language. https://splinternews.com/if-youre-confused-about-what-race-baiting-is-heres-a-b-1793848630 https://splinternews.com/if-youre-confused-about-what-race-b...

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

>What makes "stealing less than $1k" more acceptable? The cost to the victim. Someone grabs a few unsecured tie downs off a truck at a truck stop that's a hundred bucks. Someone scraps some spools of copper stolen from a job site and it could be thousands. I think having a step function where you define all theft below a dollar amount as one type and then above as a different type is just legacy code from back in the day when it wasn't reasonable for the legislature to just say "the fine will be X-times the replacement cost of the goods or an equivalent jail time as determined by table Y in appendix Z" and expect the courts to be able to enforce it in an efficient enough manner. The fact that we we have basically two classes of crime that include both violent and nonviolent crime results in a lot of overlap where you can have some pretty bad misdemeanors and some pretty mild felonies all depending on legal technicalities.

giantg2 5y ago
Don't forget summary offenses. Some of them can carry jail time. In PA you can get 90 days in jail for having a dog get loose from your yard. Additionally, a second offense within one year becomes a misdemeanor.

giantg2 5y ago

Why not just make everything a felony then? The purpose of grading is to provide an appropriate punishment. I'm my state, the grading for retail theft starts low, but depends on the value of the item. After a few times it becomes a felony for anything, such as a man who was in the news as getting a felony for stealing a candy bar. If it's always going to be a felony with potential prison time, then people might think "why not steal that riding lawn mower if the punishment is the same as a candy bar". Same risk, might as well increase the reward.

ethbr0 5y ago
Theft seems pretty clear. Either you pay for something, or you don't. If you don't, you know you didn't. I don't see how "light theft" is something we should tolerate. If we want to talk about humane solutions, carve out an exception for food theft. But nobody is stealing a $500 drill because they're starving for power tools. (And, this isn't just me expressing personal moral preferences. Theft is a tax on everyone who does pay for goods, via price increases)
- giantg2 5y ago
  "Either you pay for something, or you don't. If you don't, you know you didn't." That's not exactly true. There can be items that are confusing, such as whether or not a bin or bucket comes with a lid. With the advent of self checkouts, it's also possible that someone rings up an item incorrectly just by accident, especially with non bar codes items. People could be prosecuted for this depending on the state's requirements. The burden of proof can be quiet low. "But nobody is stealing a $500 drill because they're starving for power tools." Here you are using $500 as an example. Do you feel the same if someone takes an extra 10 cent washer? "If we want to talk about humane solutions, carve out an exception for food theft." I don't think food theft should be an exception - just the same as the current grading tier. There are many programs and food banks that people can use to get food. What are your thoughts on other crimes with different gradings? Should assault always be a felony? Should speeding always be considered reckless endangerment? Again, the grading is supposed to provide an appropriate punishment based on the severity of the crime.

minikites 5y ago

>You're stealing something. Should we lock up everyone who downloaded an MP3 from Napster or Kazaa?

ethbr0 5y ago
Imho, fungible and zero-copy-cost goods is a much more nuanced topic.

stavros 5y ago

Because it's worth less. I don't understand how it's okay for punishment to have degrees but crime is black and white?