5 ms·

> That is the sorry reality of the bazaar Raymond praised in his book: a pile of old festering hacks, endlessly copied and pasted by a clueless generation of IT

> That is the sorry reality of the bazaar Raymond praised in his book: a pile of old festering hacks, endlessly copied and pasted by a clueless generation of IT "professionals" who wouldn't recognize sound IT architecture if you hit them over the head with it. I think that all the article is self disqualifying. Maybe this was acceptable language in 2012, but it was still having a bad effect on people, arrogance cannot substitute argumentation. A Bazaar in conjunction with regulations is more sensible. As an architect at a medium sized organization my job is not too build pretty cathedrals, but to allow the teams in my department to row in the same direction. I set non functional requirements, I set direction, but I cannot know the systems that each team is developing as well as they do. Bazaars require rules, but they evolve dynamically with the needs of the organization. I love the sagrada familia un Barcelona, but it's still under construction after 150 years. Building cathedrals maybe not the way.

felipemnoa 5y ago
>I love the sagrada familia un Barcelona, but it's still under construction after 150 years. Building cathedrals maybe not the way. Well, they are not jus nailing two pieces of wood. Also, if I were to build a cathedral today I would use 3d printing and CNC milling machines as much as possible.
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  Like this? https://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-31923259 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-31923259
- WJW 5y ago
  For something like a cathedral, having it take a long time is a feature. Of course you could slap something of the same size together from prefab concrete blocks and some 3d printed stuff, but you would "just" get a soulless building with no effort from the faithful invested in it. A real cathedral is a monument for the ages, bigger than any individual who worked on it. Something for entire generations to pour their effort into so that at the end of construction you can say: "my grandfather started building this, my parents worked on it, I worked on it and during the time of my great-grandchildren this building will still be as magnificent as it is now". Trying to build it as quick and cheap as possible is simply not the point for a cathedral.
analognoise 5y ago
I think if everyone is simply rowing in one direction, you end up with a favela - functional, but not great in an earthquake or flood.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tempodox 5y ago
  I once talked to a CEO who expected and wanted an important piece of software to be rewritten every few months so it could use the app framework du jour. I wonder how many other shops there are where implementations aren't designed to last long, especially in web development.
joshz404 5y ago
Agreed. People don't flourish inside cathedrals, no matter how attractive they look.
- mihaic 5y ago
  > Agreed. People don't flourish inside cathedrals, no matter how attractive they look. Nor do they flourish inside supermarkets, these buildings are designed for something else. Walking in St. Peter's in Roma gives a sensation of awe even to devout atheists, something I can't imagine the local Walmart doing.
  - lmm 5y ago
    Didn't Yeltsin experience something akin to a religious conversion on seeking an American supermarket? We're only numb to the miracle because we see it every day.
  - simiones 5y ago
    Off-topic, but all that the St Peter's Cathedral in Rome gave me was of obscene wealth and displays of wealth. For awe, I would much more recommend the Pantheon, especially knowing that you're stepping into a building for which 500 years is barely more than a quarter of its history.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Off-topic, but all that the St Peter's Cathedral in Rome gave me was of obscene wealth and displays of wealth. Even further off-topic, but if you are referring to the big church in the Vatican adjacent to St. Peter’s Square, it is Saint Peter’s Basilica; it is the second-ranking of the four major basilicas but it is not (though many tourist-focussed lists of cathedrals include it) a cathedral. The cathedral that is the seat of the Bishop of Rome (and also the first-ranking of the four major basilicas) is the Archbasilica of St. John Lateran.
      - simiones 5y ago
TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
Barring apocalypse, Sagrada Familia will still be standing five hundred years from now. UNIX will be mostly forgotten by then - in the same way blacksmithing and carriage building are mostly forgotten today. That's the whole point of cathedral projects - make it beautiful and build it right because you're building for the future. Not to scratch your own personal boredom itch, or to nail a bit of wood to another bit of wood because why not.
- dnautics 5y ago
  That has zero to do with development style, and everything to do with medium. There have been plenty of cathedral software projects that are already lost, much less lost 500 years from now.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    btw, the (purported) world's oldest running continuous market -- happens to also be called a bazaar -- was constructed in 1455, so it's been running in excess of 500 years.
- the_af 5y ago
  > UNIX will be mostly forgotten by then UNIX may not be the best example for your argument: it's often criticized because of how long its legacy has endured, with some people arguing it's time to move on to more modern visions of what an operating system should be. So UNIX, for good or bad, is indeed the software equivalent of an ancient cathedral which endures from ages past.
  - lioeters 5y ago
    Indeed, UNIX will definitely not be forgotten 5 centuries from now (if humanity still exists by then). It will at least be in the history books, taught about in schools, and some quirky people will for sure be running it as a "retro computing" hobby.
- simiones 5y ago
  Still, looking at ancient constructions, 150 years is a huge amount of time. Most roman constructions that have survived to today were built at most in a single life time - at an extreme end, it seems that the Hagia Sophia was built in 5 years. The more than 4500 years old Great Pyramid of Giza was built in a single pharaoh's lifetime. Which is to say, engineering culture and goals can absolutely degrade over time in terms of productivity, even with great increases in construction technology.
simiones 5y ago
> I love the sagrada familia un Barcelona, but it's still under construction after 150 years. Building cathedrals maybe not the way. Interestingly, this may also be a sign of declining engineering. The Hagia Sophia, the largest church in the world for 1000 years, was apparently built in 5 years (532- 537). In general, it seems Rome was able to build fantastically persistent buildings in fractions of the time required later. Even today I wonder if we actually have the engineering and logistics practices required to build buildings that would survive thousands of years in a under a decade - of which the Romans had several.
- felipemnoa 5y ago
  >>Interestingly, this may also be a sign of declining engineering. Or it could simply mean that not enough resources were committed to the project.
  - JetSpiegel 5y ago
    500 AD, that's about the time the Western Roman Empire collapsed, of course the Byzantines needed a gigantic project to show they were the real Roman empire now. It's probably more similar to the Manhattan Project.
titzer 5y ago
> Maybe this was acceptable language in 2012, but it was still having a bad effect on people, arrogance cannot substitute argumentation. I find it refreshingly honest, vivid, cathartic and spot on. Complaints from the peanut gallery just make me love it even more. In 9 or 90 years, maybe they'll think all of our 2021 eggshell tiptoeing to be completely useless drivel devoid of insight and dump it down the memory hole. Sensibilities change!

felipemnoa 5y ago

>I love the sagrada familia un Barcelona, but it's still under construction after 150 years. Building cathedrals maybe not the way. Well, they are not jus nailing two pieces of wood. Also, if I were to build a cathedral today I would use 3d printing and CNC milling machines as much as possible.

TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
Like this? https://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-31923259 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-31923259
WJW 5y ago
For something like a cathedral, having it take a long time is a feature. Of course you could slap something of the same size together from prefab concrete blocks and some 3d printed stuff, but you would "just" get a soulless building with no effort from the faithful invested in it. A real cathedral is a monument for the ages, bigger than any individual who worked on it. Something for entire generations to pour their effort into so that at the end of construction you can say: "my grandfather started building this, my parents worked on it, I worked on it and during the time of my great-grandchildren this building will still be as magnificent as it is now". Trying to build it as quick and cheap as possible is simply not the point for a cathedral.

analognoise 5y ago

I think if everyone is simply rowing in one direction, you end up with a favela - functional, but not great in an earthquake or flood.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tempodox 5y ago
I once talked to a CEO who expected and wanted an important piece of software to be rewritten every few months so it could use the app framework du jour. I wonder how many other shops there are where implementations aren't designed to last long, especially in web development.

joshz404 5y ago

Agreed. People don't flourish inside cathedrals, no matter how attractive they look.

mihaic 5y ago
> Agreed. People don't flourish inside cathedrals, no matter how attractive they look. Nor do they flourish inside supermarkets, these buildings are designed for something else. Walking in St. Peter's in Roma gives a sensation of awe even to devout atheists, something I can't imagine the local Walmart doing.
- lmm 5y ago
  Didn't Yeltsin experience something akin to a religious conversion on seeking an American supermarket? We're only numb to the miracle because we see it every day.
- simiones 5y ago
  Off-topic, but all that the St Peter's Cathedral in Rome gave me was of obscene wealth and displays of wealth. For awe, I would much more recommend the Pantheon, especially knowing that you're stepping into a building for which 500 years is barely more than a quarter of its history.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Off-topic, but all that the St Peter's Cathedral in Rome gave me was of obscene wealth and displays of wealth. Even further off-topic, but if you are referring to the big church in the Vatican adjacent to St. Peter’s Square, it is Saint Peter’s Basilica; it is the second-ranking of the four major basilicas but it is not (though many tourist-focussed lists of cathedrals include it) a cathedral. The cathedral that is the seat of the Bishop of Rome (and also the first-ranking of the four major basilicas) is the Archbasilica of St. John Lateran.
    - simiones 5y ago

TheOtherHobbes 5y ago

Barring apocalypse, Sagrada Familia will still be standing five hundred years from now. UNIX will be mostly forgotten by then - in the same way blacksmithing and carriage building are mostly forgotten today. That's the whole point of cathedral projects - make it beautiful and build it right because you're building for the future. Not to scratch your own personal boredom itch, or to nail a bit of wood to another bit of wood because why not.

dnautics 5y ago
That has zero to do with development style, and everything to do with medium. There have been plenty of cathedral software projects that are already lost, much less lost 500 years from now.
- dnautics 5y ago
  btw, the (purported) world's oldest running continuous market -- happens to also be called a bazaar -- was constructed in 1455, so it's been running in excess of 500 years.
the_af 5y ago
> UNIX will be mostly forgotten by then UNIX may not be the best example for your argument: it's often criticized because of how long its legacy has endured, with some people arguing it's time to move on to more modern visions of what an operating system should be. So UNIX, for good or bad, is indeed the software equivalent of an ancient cathedral which endures from ages past.
- lioeters 5y ago
  Indeed, UNIX will definitely not be forgotten 5 centuries from now (if humanity still exists by then). It will at least be in the history books, taught about in schools, and some quirky people will for sure be running it as a "retro computing" hobby.
simiones 5y ago
Still, looking at ancient constructions, 150 years is a huge amount of time. Most roman constructions that have survived to today were built at most in a single life time - at an extreme end, it seems that the Hagia Sophia was built in 5 years. The more than 4500 years old Great Pyramid of Giza was built in a single pharaoh's lifetime. Which is to say, engineering culture and goals can absolutely degrade over time in terms of productivity, even with great increases in construction technology.

simiones 5y ago

> I love the sagrada familia un Barcelona, but it's still under construction after 150 years. Building cathedrals maybe not the way. Interestingly, this may also be a sign of declining engineering. The Hagia Sophia, the largest church in the world for 1000 years, was apparently built in 5 years (532- 537). In general, it seems Rome was able to build fantastically persistent buildings in fractions of the time required later. Even today I wonder if we actually have the engineering and logistics practices required to build buildings that would survive thousands of years in a under a decade - of which the Romans had several.

felipemnoa 5y ago
>>Interestingly, this may also be a sign of declining engineering. Or it could simply mean that not enough resources were committed to the project.
- JetSpiegel 5y ago
  500 AD, that's about the time the Western Roman Empire collapsed, of course the Byzantines needed a gigantic project to show they were the real Roman empire now. It's probably more similar to the Manhattan Project.

titzer 5y ago

> Maybe this was acceptable language in 2012, but it was still having a bad effect on people, arrogance cannot substitute argumentation. I find it refreshingly honest, vivid, cathartic and spot on. Complaints from the peanut gallery just make me love it even more. In 9 or 90 years, maybe they'll think all of our 2021 eggshell tiptoeing to be completely useless drivel devoid of insight and dump it down the memory hole. Sensibilities change!