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This is mostly bullshit. Crime rates in California and SF are comparable to the rest of the country. However there seems to be a concerted effort to push back o

This is mostly bullshit. Crime rates in California and SF are comparable to the rest of the country. However there seems to be a concerted effort to push back on any reductions in moronic "tough on crime" policies from the 80s and 90s. Thefts under $1k should be a misdemeanor. How the hell were they ever a felony? In Canada theft under $5k is punishable by a maximum of 2 years in jail (with most people getting a lot less) and retailers seem to be doing ok. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/14/bogus-backlash-against-progressive-prosecutors/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/14/bogus-bac... Edit: The media seems to be in a real crime frenzy right now. Exhibit A is this bullshit graph that swaps the x axis to make it look like crime is rising: https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/06/24/cnn-chart-crime https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/06/24/cnn-chart-crime

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dimitrios1 5y ago
> However there seems to be a concerted effort to push back on any reductions in moronic "tough on crime" policies from the 80s and 90s. I'd say. We just elected one of the architects as president.
evgen 5y ago
The idea that any relaxation of stiff criminal penalties for small thefts leads to widespread brazen thefts that will soon expand to become a direct threat to suburban white people has now become a right-wing talking point, so you will see it brought up here by the usual suspects on any topic that intersects with retail margins or retail theft. It is a type of story that makes for good clickbait, so it tends to be repeated by people pushing particular agendas.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  Theft shouldn't be tolerated from either side. >repeated by people pushing particular agendas The irony.... The agenda seems to be it's ok to steal, commit crime if you're a specific skin color. You're right there is an agenda being pushed. I can't believe people can be so brainwashed that they'll defend crime. I guess you reap what you sow though, just don't push your moronic "acceptance" on the rest of the country. And please for the love of god stay where you are and don't infest other parts of the US with your ridiculousness. If you want to live in a place that supports this by all means do it but don't make the rest of us do it.
  - evgen 5y ago
    > Theft shouldn't be tolerated from either side. It shouldn't, nor should it lead to long custodial sentences. > The agenda seems to be it's ok to steal, commit crime if you're a specific skin color. Wow. Wasn't even going to go there, but if you are going to let your racist flag fly I guess we can just let you run with it. The rest of us will continue to explore radical ideas like attacking the causes of criminal behavior rather than just criminalizing poverty and when necessary treating offenders with rehabilitation rather than the sort of simple-minded retribution that you seem to favour.
    - haram_masala 5y ago
      That all sounds great, but you’d better be sure about the “causes of criminal behavior.” Not everyone agrees on that, and as such, you might be unpleasantly surprised at what ultimately gets “attacked.”
    - CountDrewku 5y ago
      Ok well since you're playing the race baiting game can I assume that you're fine with the criminal activity leading to small sentences on Jan 6th? Why don't you tell us how allowing more criminal activity and giving people less harsh sentences is going to fix minority communities? Does it work along the same lines as throwing them free money? >Wasn't even going to go there, but if you are going to let your racist But you did and you did so because you have a lame rebuttal no good logical argument to defend your bs. When you label everyone who upsets you racist it starts to make the word meaningless so good job on that front. "Look another racist! See... no one cares"
CountDrewku 5y ago
>Thefts under $1k should be a misdemeanor. Why? What does Canada have to do with the US? >and retailers seem to be doing ok. I'm sure they big box stores are just fine, they just pass the cost on to the consumer. It doesn't end so well for the small businesses.
jjoonathan 5y ago
I dunno... the people at our SF office talk about car break-ins happening roughly yearly and when I visit SF I see signs disclaiming responsibility for theft everywhere.
deleted 5y ago
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ghufran_syed 5y ago
If people have learnt not to report crimes (because it makes no difference), the police have learnt to not arrest people for non-violent crimes (because the DA won't prosecute), do you think that might affect the crime rates? If so, in which direction?
- pvarangot 5y ago
  > If people have learnt not to report crimes (because it makes no difference) I call bullshit on people saying there's widespread crime not being reported. If your car window got smashed if you are either: - A Lyft or Uber driver - Your car was a rental - You have a lease on your car - Have "premium" or expensive home or car insurance you get actual money from filing a police report from your insurance provider. If your gadgets get stolen in the street a lot of credit cards or stuff like Apple care, and also some home insurance, will cover part of getting a replacement. But you also have to file a police report. I really doubt most people are "learning to not report crime" when they literally can get payed for it.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    When I was in SF I went through 3 windows a year and knew several folks in the same boat. Never reported one or heard of someone reporting one. Most rationales were people don't have insurance coverage damage or don't have proof of property loss (receipts, ect). Would not be surprised if actual numbers were 10-50x the reported
  - olyjohn 5y ago
    Insurance won't always ask you for a police report. They're not going to chase someone down for a $150 window. If you break your own window on accident, I don't think they care much about the difference.
matchbok 5y ago
Simply incorrect. Many, many stores have closed or reduced hours in SF because of the rampant crime. No other city is doing that.
golergka 5y ago
> Crime rates in California and SF are comparable to the rest of the country. I don't know who's in the wrong here, but if the comment you're replying to was correct and DA wouldn't persecute these cases, wouldn't it also mean that they wouldn't appear in statistics you're quoting as well?
ethbr0 5y ago
I have no problem with any theft being a felony. You're stealing something. What makes "stealing less than $1k" more acceptable?
- meragrin_ 5y ago
  Any theft? Should a kid stealing a pack of bubble gum be labeled a felon?
  - minikites 5y ago
    If we're talking about the USA, it depends on the color of the kid's skin. White juveniles are sent home with a stern verbal admonishment, black juveniles are sent to prison at the first opportunity.
    - CountDrewku 5y ago
      If you're gonna race bait at least provide proof.
      - minikites 5y ago
        Evidence is widely available and not difficult to locate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_incarceration_in_the_United_States#Criticisms_of_racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_incarceration_in_the_Uni... >In 1995, African American youths made up 12% of the population, but were arrested at rates double those for Caucasian youths. The trend towards adult adjudication has had implications for the racial make-up of the juvenile prison population as well. Minority youth tried in adult courts are much more likely to be sentenced to serve prison time than white youth offenders arrested for similar crimes. https://thecrimereport.org/2021/06/17/racial-disparities-persist-in-youth-justice-system-panel/ https://thecrimereport.org/2021/06/17/racial-disparities-per... >According to the Equal Justice Initiative, Black children are more than twice as likely as white kids to be arrested, even though they’re not committing more crimes, but because Black Kids are burdened by a “presumption of guilt and dangerousness,” which leads youth of color to have higher rates of stops, searches, violence, suspension, and disproportionate contact with the juvenile justice system. https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/racial-disparities-in-youth-commitments-and-arrests/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/racial-dispar... >As of 2013, black juveniles were more than four times as likely to be committed as white juveniles, Americans Indian juveniles were more than three times as likely, and Hispanic juveniles were 61 percent more likely. http://jaapl.org/content/early/2019/02/13/JAAPL.003828-19 http://jaapl.org/content/early/2019/02/13/JAAPL.003828-19 >However, research has documented the existence of racial disparity in the treatment of youth involved in the juvenile justice system for several decades. Studies from the 1980s and 1990s demonstrated that black juveniles were detained and confined at higher rates compared with white youth, and that black youth were more likely to be sent to correctional facilities compared with white youth, who were more likely to be sent to psychiatric hospitals. Additionally, recent studies have documented the continued trend of overrepresentation of minority youth in the juvenile justice system
sandworm101 5y ago
If the Canadian maximum is 2years, then that i would be a felony by US standards. Canadian law also has subtle differences such as hybrid offenses whereby prosecutors can decide whether to charge as a felony or misdemeanor, for exactly the same crime/facts. Such a concept would be entirely unconstitutional under US law. So direct comparisons between the countries re possible punishments are complicated.
haram_masala 5y ago
Target has started closing their San Francisco stores at 6pm as a response to the increase in theft. Do you really think that this wasn't a data-driven decision, and that Target as a whole just got swept up in some kind of racist moral panic?
- Drunk_Engineer 5y ago
  Target has been reducing hours of employees throughout the country.
  - tbihl 5y ago
    This may be true, but that is distinct from closing before dark (which I haven't seen in any other place.)
    - jessaustin 5y ago
      A relatively-new (built in the last two years) Taco Bell near me has a sign up saying that they are only open 4PM-10PM, drive-thru only. Something weird is going on with employment. It's as if some of these big firms will suffer some huge penalty the moment their average wages go over a certain threshold.
      - shadowgovt 5y ago
        The drive-thru only restriction is almost certainly because of COVID. ... But the hours restriction is interesting. I've noticed weird hours at the Taco Bell near my place, and this is probably purely anecdotal, but it does make me sort of wonder if there's something unique to Taco Bell making it hard for them to flesh out their hours.
- JTbane 5y ago
  IMO it doesn't matter if your theft is a felony or misdemeanor, police should still patrol and try to pursue it. Cops, however, claim they are overworked and understaffed to do this. This is the "broken windows" theory- if you let minor crimes like shoplifting go unpunished in a city, more people will do it.
refurb 5y ago
Theft under $5k in Canada is an indictable offense which is the same as a felony in Canada. *if the value of what is stolen is not more than $5,000, is guilty (i) of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years* https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-334.html https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-334.ht...
redis_mlc 5y ago
> This is mostly bullshit. Crime rates in California and SF are comparable to the rest of the country. No, I live in SF and: 1) the police don't even show up for thefts under $950. That's why Target stores have 3x the security staff and still close at 6 pm. 2) so crime stats are not reported, since they're not even collected 3) every time I go shopping, I see shoplifting. The retail staff look like they have PTSD - it's really that bad here. Let me guess - you're some kind of SJW Marxist and hate a functioning Western society? Because that's where we're at in SF.
sushid 5y ago
This is NOT bullshit. Do you live in SF? I live right next to the CVS/Walgreens that are targeted in Soma and I can guarantee you you'll see someone robbing them blind if you stay in there for about 1 hour in there. I go in there to buy something small once in a while and 1 out of 4 times I see some guy just grabbing and walking out while the security watches him steal right before their eyes.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dimitrios1 5y ago

> However there seems to be a concerted effort to push back on any reductions in moronic "tough on crime" policies from the 80s and 90s. I'd say. We just elected one of the architects as president.

evgen 5y ago

The idea that any relaxation of stiff criminal penalties for small thefts leads to widespread brazen thefts that will soon expand to become a direct threat to suburban white people has now become a right-wing talking point, so you will see it brought up here by the usual suspects on any topic that intersects with retail margins or retail theft. It is a type of story that makes for good clickbait, so it tends to be repeated by people pushing particular agendas.

CountDrewku 5y ago
Theft shouldn't be tolerated from either side. >repeated by people pushing particular agendas The irony.... The agenda seems to be it's ok to steal, commit crime if you're a specific skin color. You're right there is an agenda being pushed. I can't believe people can be so brainwashed that they'll defend crime. I guess you reap what you sow though, just don't push your moronic "acceptance" on the rest of the country. And please for the love of god stay where you are and don't infest other parts of the US with your ridiculousness. If you want to live in a place that supports this by all means do it but don't make the rest of us do it.
- evgen 5y ago
  > Theft shouldn't be tolerated from either side. It shouldn't, nor should it lead to long custodial sentences. > The agenda seems to be it's ok to steal, commit crime if you're a specific skin color. Wow. Wasn't even going to go there, but if you are going to let your racist flag fly I guess we can just let you run with it. The rest of us will continue to explore radical ideas like attacking the causes of criminal behavior rather than just criminalizing poverty and when necessary treating offenders with rehabilitation rather than the sort of simple-minded retribution that you seem to favour.
  - haram_masala 5y ago
    That all sounds great, but you’d better be sure about the “causes of criminal behavior.” Not everyone agrees on that, and as such, you might be unpleasantly surprised at what ultimately gets “attacked.”
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    Ok well since you're playing the race baiting game can I assume that you're fine with the criminal activity leading to small sentences on Jan 6th? Why don't you tell us how allowing more criminal activity and giving people less harsh sentences is going to fix minority communities? Does it work along the same lines as throwing them free money? >Wasn't even going to go there, but if you are going to let your racist But you did and you did so because you have a lame rebuttal no good logical argument to defend your bs. When you label everyone who upsets you racist it starts to make the word meaningless so good job on that front. "Look another racist! See... no one cares"

CountDrewku 5y ago

>Thefts under $1k should be a misdemeanor. Why? What does Canada have to do with the US? >and retailers seem to be doing ok. I'm sure they big box stores are just fine, they just pass the cost on to the consumer. It doesn't end so well for the small businesses.

jjoonathan 5y ago

I dunno... the people at our SF office talk about car break-ins happening roughly yearly and when I visit SF I see signs disclaiming responsibility for theft everywhere.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ghufran_syed 5y ago

If people have learnt not to report crimes (because it makes no difference), the police have learnt to not arrest people for non-violent crimes (because the DA won't prosecute), do you think that might affect the crime rates? If so, in which direction?

pvarangot 5y ago
> If people have learnt not to report crimes (because it makes no difference) I call bullshit on people saying there's widespread crime not being reported. If your car window got smashed if you are either: - A Lyft or Uber driver - Your car was a rental - You have a lease on your car - Have "premium" or expensive home or car insurance you get actual money from filing a police report from your insurance provider. If your gadgets get stolen in the street a lot of credit cards or stuff like Apple care, and also some home insurance, will cover part of getting a replacement. But you also have to file a police report. I really doubt most people are "learning to not report crime" when they literally can get payed for it.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  When I was in SF I went through 3 windows a year and knew several folks in the same boat. Never reported one or heard of someone reporting one. Most rationales were people don't have insurance coverage damage or don't have proof of property loss (receipts, ect). Would not be surprised if actual numbers were 10-50x the reported
- olyjohn 5y ago
  Insurance won't always ask you for a police report. They're not going to chase someone down for a $150 window. If you break your own window on accident, I don't think they care much about the difference.

matchbok 5y ago

Simply incorrect. Many, many stores have closed or reduced hours in SF because of the rampant crime. No other city is doing that.

golergka 5y ago

> Crime rates in California and SF are comparable to the rest of the country. I don't know who's in the wrong here, but if the comment you're replying to was correct and DA wouldn't persecute these cases, wouldn't it also mean that they wouldn't appear in statistics you're quoting as well?

ethbr0 5y ago

I have no problem with any theft being a felony. You're stealing something. What makes "stealing less than $1k" more acceptable?

meragrin_ 5y ago
Any theft? Should a kid stealing a pack of bubble gum be labeled a felon?
- minikites 5y ago
  If we're talking about the USA, it depends on the color of the kid's skin. White juveniles are sent home with a stern verbal admonishment, black juveniles are sent to prison at the first opportunity.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    If you're gonna race bait at least provide proof.
    - minikites 5y ago
      Evidence is widely available and not difficult to locate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_incarceration_in_the_United_States#Criticisms_of_racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_incarceration_in_the_Uni... >In 1995, African American youths made up 12% of the population, but were arrested at rates double those for Caucasian youths. The trend towards adult adjudication has had implications for the racial make-up of the juvenile prison population as well. Minority youth tried in adult courts are much more likely to be sentenced to serve prison time than white youth offenders arrested for similar crimes. https://thecrimereport.org/2021/06/17/racial-disparities-persist-in-youth-justice-system-panel/ https://thecrimereport.org/2021/06/17/racial-disparities-per... >According to the Equal Justice Initiative, Black children are more than twice as likely as white kids to be arrested, even though they’re not committing more crimes, but because Black Kids are burdened by a “presumption of guilt and dangerousness,” which leads youth of color to have higher rates of stops, searches, violence, suspension, and disproportionate contact with the juvenile justice system. https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/racial-disparities-in-youth-commitments-and-arrests/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/racial-dispar... >As of 2013, black juveniles were more than four times as likely to be committed as white juveniles, Americans Indian juveniles were more than three times as likely, and Hispanic juveniles were 61 percent more likely. http://jaapl.org/content/early/2019/02/13/JAAPL.003828-19 http://jaapl.org/content/early/2019/02/13/JAAPL.003828-19 >However, research has documented the existence of racial disparity in the treatment of youth involved in the juvenile justice system for several decades. Studies from the 1980s and 1990s demonstrated that black juveniles were detained and confined at higher rates compared with white youth, and that black youth were more likely to be sent to correctional facilities compared with white youth, who were more likely to be sent to psychiatric hospitals. Additionally, recent studies have documented the continued trend of overrepresentation of minority youth in the juvenile justice system

sandworm101 5y ago

If the Canadian maximum is 2years, then that i would be a felony by US standards. Canadian law also has subtle differences such as hybrid offenses whereby prosecutors can decide whether to charge as a felony or misdemeanor, for exactly the same crime/facts. Such a concept would be entirely unconstitutional under US law. So direct comparisons between the countries re possible punishments are complicated.

haram_masala 5y ago

Target has started closing their San Francisco stores at 6pm as a response to the increase in theft. Do you really think that this wasn't a data-driven decision, and that Target as a whole just got swept up in some kind of racist moral panic?

Drunk_Engineer 5y ago
Target has been reducing hours of employees throughout the country.
- tbihl 5y ago
  This may be true, but that is distinct from closing before dark (which I haven't seen in any other place.)
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    A relatively-new (built in the last two years) Taco Bell near me has a sign up saying that they are only open 4PM-10PM, drive-thru only. Something weird is going on with employment. It's as if some of these big firms will suffer some huge penalty the moment their average wages go over a certain threshold.
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      The drive-thru only restriction is almost certainly because of COVID. ... But the hours restriction is interesting. I've noticed weird hours at the Taco Bell near my place, and this is probably purely anecdotal, but it does make me sort of wonder if there's something unique to Taco Bell making it hard for them to flesh out their hours.
JTbane 5y ago
IMO it doesn't matter if your theft is a felony or misdemeanor, police should still patrol and try to pursue it. Cops, however, claim they are overworked and understaffed to do this. This is the "broken windows" theory- if you let minor crimes like shoplifting go unpunished in a city, more people will do it.

refurb 5y ago

Theft under $5k in Canada is an indictable offense which is the same as a felony in Canada. *if the value of what is stolen is not more than $5,000, is guilty (i) of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years* https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-334.html https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-334.ht...

redis_mlc 5y ago

> This is mostly bullshit. Crime rates in California and SF are comparable to the rest of the country. No, I live in SF and: 1) the police don't even show up for thefts under $950. That's why Target stores have 3x the security staff and still close at 6 pm. 2) so crime stats are not reported, since they're not even collected 3) every time I go shopping, I see shoplifting. The retail staff look like they have PTSD - it's really that bad here. Let me guess - you're some kind of SJW Marxist and hate a functioning Western society? Because that's where we're at in SF.

sushid 5y ago

This is NOT bullshit. Do you live in SF? I live right next to the CVS/Walgreens that are targeted in Soma and I can guarantee you you'll see someone robbing them blind if you stay in there for about 1 hour in there. I go in there to buy something small once in a while and 1 out of 4 times I see some guy just grabbing and walking out while the security watches him steal right before their eyes.