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The problem is it kind of works. Israeli propagandists describe anyone who opposes Israeli war crimes or anyone that critiques their continued colonization of P

The problem is it kind of works. Israeli propagandists describe anyone who opposes Israeli war crimes or anyone that critiques their continued colonization of Palestinians as terrorist sympathizers. Guess what seemingly everyone in media/politics avoid?

jessaustin 5y ago
"Terrorist sympathizer" is a milder slander than the one they really like to use for critics of Israel's actions, "antisemitic".
- pulse7 5y ago
  Aren't Arabs also "semitic people" [1]? (Since Ishmael and Abraham are also descendants of Shem...). In this case "antisemitic" would also mean "against Arabs"... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
  - fidesomnes 5y ago
    This is embarrassing.
  - wchar_t 5y ago
    Yes, they are also a Semitic group, but "Anti-Semitic" has come to refer to hatred specifically against Israelis. Maybe because that hatred is more widespread than hatred against all Semitic people...?
    - olivierduval 5y ago
      Actually, "anti-semitic" is against "jewish" person (as a religion) and not against "israeli" citizen (as a nationality). The last one is called "anti-sionist"... The fact that Israel is a nation "home for jews" doesn't help, as some people think that every critic against Israel politic is the mark of "anti-semitism" even if religion has nothing to do with. Sometimes it might be the indicator of "anti-sionism" and sometimes... just the indicator of political difference! After all, you can criticize any country for its politic without critizing the counrty "per se" Moreover, a lot of people in Israel are not jewish but muslims.
  - tempodox 5y ago
    You are right, there are Jews who aren't Semites an there are Semites who aren't Jews. The term “anti-Semitism” came up near the end of the 19th century [1] when it was all the rage to find scientific-sounding words for whatever you do or sell. “Anti-Semitism” sells better than plain “hatred of Jews”. I for one wouldn't give racists the satisfaction of using their own choice for cloaking their prejudice and stupidity in pseudo-science but the term seems to have taken hold everywhere. [1]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/anti-Semitism https://www.britannica.com/topic/anti-Semitism
    - AzzieElbab 5y ago
      Languages are Semitic, people are not. These categories are outdated to the extreme.
  - seoaeu 5y ago
    Sometimes words don't mean exactly what their etymology suggests. So I'm sorry but, objecting to using the world 'antisemitism' to refer to "anti-Jewish racism" comes across as trying to deny Jews the ability to describe their own oppression
    - bjourne 5y ago
      Hanlon's razor applies: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Many or most people incorrectly assume that anti-Semitism has something to do with Semitic people because the words (but not their meanings) are similar.
      - will4274 5y ago
        Hard disagree. One of these (anti-Semitism) is far more common than the other (references to Arabs as "Semitic"). It's like saying that you've only heard of "negro" as a color. In a culture and a place (the United States) where that is absurd, assumptions of malintent and bad faith are a better heuristic.
  - bashinator 5y ago
    Isn't "Caucasian" a specific ethnicity of the region between eastern Europe and western Asia?
  - raincom 5y ago
    The point you bring up is an example of "fallacy of equivocation". Yes, words are polysemic. In this case, 'anti-semetic' is seen as "anti-jewish". That's one sense of 'anti-semetic'. You can also add another sense of that word: "against speakers of Semetic language or people". This sense is not used when people use 'anti-semetic'. In Europe, there has been centuries of discussion about jews: it was called "the Jewish question". Anyway, this anti-semitism started as a product of religious rivalry (which religion is True? Christianity or Judaism). Then extra features were added, etc.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    I don't mean to imply that the word makes any sense in this context. However, if one chooses to complain about Israeli abuses of Palestinians, it is a fact that one will be called "antisemitic".
- seoaeu 5y ago
  Seriously? "...the one (((they))) really like to use..."? Whenever the topic of Israel comes up, there's always the handful eager to accuse Jews about always crying wolf on antisemitism. Makes you wonder why they're so eager to preempt any honest discussion of antisemitism
  - fourier1234 5y ago
    You know exactly why, because of how anti-semitism is used as an excuse to ignore all the Israeli and/or Jewish terrorism.
    - seoaeu 5y ago
      > and/or Jewish terrorism. Rather curious who you think all these Jewish non-Israeli terrorists are
  - PhasmaFelis 5y ago
    "They" being "Israeli propagandists" as referenced in the previous comment. What you're doing is exactly what we're talking about. Trying to shut down any criticism of the Israeli government as antisemitic bigotry. It's no different than the 50 Cent Army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Army) dismissing all criticism of the CCP as sinophobia.
    - seoaeu 5y ago
      Clever. By labeling anyone who alleges antisemitism as an "Israeli propagandist" you can shut down any discussion of antisemitism without having to engage with whether there may be any bigotry or prejudice in play But seriously, ask yourself if there is any way a Jew could tell you "Hey, what you're saying about Israel is kinda racist because XYZ" without you immediately dismissing them. (And maybe there is! I haven't gotten to know you in real life)
      - jakelazaroff 5y ago
        The opposite is a much more common occurrence. By reflexively labeling any criticism of Israel as "antisemitic", people shut down discussion without having to engage in the topics of settler colonialism or apartheid. Frankly, this is one of the more frustrating aspects of my experience as a diaspora Jew: having to constantly point out that Israel != Jews in response to people who want to exploit my religious identity for their own ends.
joelbluminator 5y ago
> Guess what seemingly everyone in media/politics avoid? Who avoids it? Israel is written about, almost always negatively, on a daily basis on all major newspapers. Care to say which media outlet avoids "criticizing" Israel other than a few unimportant right wing outlets?
- skinkestek 5y ago
  I have the same observations as you from Norway. From what I hear from those who have been here longer than me it has been like this since the 60ies or 70ies so it is not a new thing either.
  - HappyDreamer 5y ago
    GP: > > Israel is written about, almost always negatively, on a daily basis on all major newspapers You could say that about the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) as well or the dictators in Saudi Arabia. Sometimes there's a well founded reason for criticizing the state in a country. That does not mean the ones who criticize the Israeli state or the CCP, would think that everyone in Israel or China are bad people. P: > same observations as you There's a cognitive bias to notice negative sounding things written about one's own "soccer team", but not notice positive or neutral things so much. Let's say there's 1 article about settlers taking land, 1 about the Israeli state selling suicide bomber drones to Azerbaijan, and 15 articles about vaccination, tech companies, the Pride Parade, other things -- maybe you wouldn't remember the 15 latter, only keep the 1 + 1 former in mind. (This is as expected b.t.w. thinking about evolution and hunter gatherer tribes long ago)
    - skinkestek 5y ago
      > Let's say there's 2 articles about settlers taking land, and 10 articles about startups and tech companies in Israe I'm talking about almost every news outlet writing "Israel bombed Gaza" and only one being nuanced enough to mention "Israel bombed Gaza after n hundred rockets crossed the border during the last 24 hours." Settlers taking land is also interesting. It took quite a while before someone (and none of the big ones) cared to mention that the latest dispute was over Jewish owned land that was stolen by Jordan during their short management of east Jerusalem and sold to Arabs.
skinkestek 5y ago
> Guess what seemingly everyone in media/politics avoid? We discussed the other day as well. We clearly live in different realities which might explain why we couldn't come to an agreement. For the reference here is what my reality looks like: Around here there are exactly two major outlets that I am aware of that is pro Israel: "MIFF - Med Israel For Fred" (With Israel For Peace) and the conservative newspaper document.no. The rest of known media outlets are more or less deeply anti-Israeli: Public broadcaster NRK is probably the biggest hatemongerer (publishing "funny" skits about "jewish swines", telling that Israeli soldiers "shoots at everything that moves", having a radio host saying on air (yes, on air) that he hope the vaccine doesn't work on them and they die from COVID etc.) On the other side you have vg.no who will always end their pieces about Israelis bombing something with a sentence or two to balance it somewhat: "The Israeli attack happened after n hundred rockets had been fired over the border the last 24 hours." The rest falls somewhere in the middle: not calling Israelis Jewish Swines like NRK but simultaneously only reporting whenever Israel strikes back, completely ignoring why.
seoaeu 5y ago
I'm sure the "terrorist sympathizers" label has absolutely nothing to do with the same people leveling those criticisms also being rather sympathetic towards the people committing terror attacks against Israelis...
- boomskats 5y ago
  So just to be clear, your response to the criticism that 'Israeli propagandists describe anyone who opposes Israeli war crimes or anyone that critiques their continued colonization of Palestinians as terrorist sympathizers'... is to label anyone criticising those Israeli propagandists a terrorist sympathizer?
  - seoaeu 5y ago
    No, plenty of critics aren't terrorist sympathizers. Some critics are openly sympathetic to Hamas and Co. Barring any context to the contrary, I'm naturally going to assume anyone complaining about being accused of being a terrorist sympathizer as belonging to the latter group. (It seems easy enough to clear up confusion by just saying "I oppose Hamas")
will4274 5y ago
> Guess what seemingly everyone in media/politics avoid? Would you be referring to the most-discussed conflict of all time? It's always funny to me when I hear on Reddit that "nobody talks" about Israeli war crimes. We're talking about it right now. Go look at Wikipedia's page of active conflicts - how many of them do you hear about the war crimes being committed? Coverage of Israeli war crimes is disproportionately *large* compared to other conflicts, not disproportionately small.

jessaustin 5y ago

"Terrorist sympathizer" is a milder slander than the one they really like to use for critics of Israel's actions, "antisemitic".

pulse7 5y ago
Aren't Arabs also "semitic people" [1]? (Since Ishmael and Abraham are also descendants of Shem...). In this case "antisemitic" would also mean "against Arabs"... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
- fidesomnes 5y ago
  This is embarrassing.
- wchar_t 5y ago
  Yes, they are also a Semitic group, but "Anti-Semitic" has come to refer to hatred specifically against Israelis. Maybe because that hatred is more widespread than hatred against all Semitic people...?
  - olivierduval 5y ago
    Actually, "anti-semitic" is against "jewish" person (as a religion) and not against "israeli" citizen (as a nationality). The last one is called "anti-sionist"... The fact that Israel is a nation "home for jews" doesn't help, as some people think that every critic against Israel politic is the mark of "anti-semitism" even if religion has nothing to do with. Sometimes it might be the indicator of "anti-sionism" and sometimes... just the indicator of political difference! After all, you can criticize any country for its politic without critizing the counrty "per se" Moreover, a lot of people in Israel are not jewish but muslims.
- tempodox 5y ago
  You are right, there are Jews who aren't Semites an there are Semites who aren't Jews. The term “anti-Semitism” came up near the end of the 19th century [1] when it was all the rage to find scientific-sounding words for whatever you do or sell. “Anti-Semitism” sells better than plain “hatred of Jews”. I for one wouldn't give racists the satisfaction of using their own choice for cloaking their prejudice and stupidity in pseudo-science but the term seems to have taken hold everywhere. [1]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/anti-Semitism https://www.britannica.com/topic/anti-Semitism
  - AzzieElbab 5y ago
    Languages are Semitic, people are not. These categories are outdated to the extreme.
- seoaeu 5y ago
  Sometimes words don't mean exactly what their etymology suggests. So I'm sorry but, objecting to using the world 'antisemitism' to refer to "anti-Jewish racism" comes across as trying to deny Jews the ability to describe their own oppression
  - bjourne 5y ago
    Hanlon's razor applies: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Many or most people incorrectly assume that anti-Semitism has something to do with Semitic people because the words (but not their meanings) are similar.
    - will4274 5y ago
      Hard disagree. One of these (anti-Semitism) is far more common than the other (references to Arabs as "Semitic"). It's like saying that you've only heard of "negro" as a color. In a culture and a place (the United States) where that is absurd, assumptions of malintent and bad faith are a better heuristic.
- bashinator 5y ago
  Isn't "Caucasian" a specific ethnicity of the region between eastern Europe and western Asia?
- raincom 5y ago
  The point you bring up is an example of "fallacy of equivocation". Yes, words are polysemic. In this case, 'anti-semetic' is seen as "anti-jewish". That's one sense of 'anti-semetic'. You can also add another sense of that word: "against speakers of Semetic language or people". This sense is not used when people use 'anti-semetic'. In Europe, there has been centuries of discussion about jews: it was called "the Jewish question". Anyway, this anti-semitism started as a product of religious rivalry (which religion is True? Christianity or Judaism). Then extra features were added, etc.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  I don't mean to imply that the word makes any sense in this context. However, if one chooses to complain about Israeli abuses of Palestinians, it is a fact that one will be called "antisemitic".
seoaeu 5y ago
Seriously? "...the one (((they))) really like to use..."? Whenever the topic of Israel comes up, there's always the handful eager to accuse Jews about always crying wolf on antisemitism. Makes you wonder why they're so eager to preempt any honest discussion of antisemitism
- fourier1234 5y ago
  You know exactly why, because of how anti-semitism is used as an excuse to ignore all the Israeli and/or Jewish terrorism.
  - seoaeu 5y ago
    > and/or Jewish terrorism. Rather curious who you think all these Jewish non-Israeli terrorists are
- PhasmaFelis 5y ago
  "They" being "Israeli propagandists" as referenced in the previous comment. What you're doing is exactly what we're talking about. Trying to shut down any criticism of the Israeli government as antisemitic bigotry. It's no different than the 50 Cent Army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Army) dismissing all criticism of the CCP as sinophobia.
  - seoaeu 5y ago
    Clever. By labeling anyone who alleges antisemitism as an "Israeli propagandist" you can shut down any discussion of antisemitism without having to engage with whether there may be any bigotry or prejudice in play But seriously, ask yourself if there is any way a Jew could tell you "Hey, what you're saying about Israel is kinda racist because XYZ" without you immediately dismissing them. (And maybe there is! I haven't gotten to know you in real life)
    - jakelazaroff 5y ago
      The opposite is a much more common occurrence. By reflexively labeling any criticism of Israel as "antisemitic", people shut down discussion without having to engage in the topics of settler colonialism or apartheid. Frankly, this is one of the more frustrating aspects of my experience as a diaspora Jew: having to constantly point out that Israel != Jews in response to people who want to exploit my religious identity for their own ends.

joelbluminator 5y ago

> Guess what seemingly everyone in media/politics avoid? Who avoids it? Israel is written about, almost always negatively, on a daily basis on all major newspapers. Care to say which media outlet avoids "criticizing" Israel other than a few unimportant right wing outlets?

skinkestek 5y ago
I have the same observations as you from Norway. From what I hear from those who have been here longer than me it has been like this since the 60ies or 70ies so it is not a new thing either.
- HappyDreamer 5y ago
  GP: > > Israel is written about, almost always negatively, on a daily basis on all major newspapers You could say that about the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) as well or the dictators in Saudi Arabia. Sometimes there's a well founded reason for criticizing the state in a country. That does not mean the ones who criticize the Israeli state or the CCP, would think that everyone in Israel or China are bad people. P: > same observations as you There's a cognitive bias to notice negative sounding things written about one's own "soccer team", but not notice positive or neutral things so much. Let's say there's 1 article about settlers taking land, 1 about the Israeli state selling suicide bomber drones to Azerbaijan, and 15 articles about vaccination, tech companies, the Pride Parade, other things -- maybe you wouldn't remember the 15 latter, only keep the 1 + 1 former in mind. (This is as expected b.t.w. thinking about evolution and hunter gatherer tribes long ago)
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    > Let's say there's 2 articles about settlers taking land, and 10 articles about startups and tech companies in Israe I'm talking about almost every news outlet writing "Israel bombed Gaza" and only one being nuanced enough to mention "Israel bombed Gaza after n hundred rockets crossed the border during the last 24 hours." Settlers taking land is also interesting. It took quite a while before someone (and none of the big ones) cared to mention that the latest dispute was over Jewish owned land that was stolen by Jordan during their short management of east Jerusalem and sold to Arabs.

skinkestek 5y ago

> Guess what seemingly everyone in media/politics avoid? We discussed the other day as well. We clearly live in different realities which might explain why we couldn't come to an agreement. For the reference here is what my reality looks like: Around here there are exactly two major outlets that I am aware of that is pro Israel: "MIFF - Med Israel For Fred" (With Israel For Peace) and the conservative newspaper document.no. The rest of known media outlets are more or less deeply anti-Israeli: Public broadcaster NRK is probably the biggest hatemongerer (publishing "funny" skits about "jewish swines", telling that Israeli soldiers "shoots at everything that moves", having a radio host saying on air (yes, on air) that he hope the vaccine doesn't work on them and they die from COVID etc.) On the other side you have vg.no who will always end their pieces about Israelis bombing something with a sentence or two to balance it somewhat: "The Israeli attack happened after n hundred rockets had been fired over the border the last 24 hours." The rest falls somewhere in the middle: not calling Israelis Jewish Swines like NRK but simultaneously only reporting whenever Israel strikes back, completely ignoring why.

seoaeu 5y ago

I'm sure the "terrorist sympathizers" label has absolutely nothing to do with the same people leveling those criticisms also being rather sympathetic towards the people committing terror attacks against Israelis...

boomskats 5y ago
So just to be clear, your response to the criticism that 'Israeli propagandists describe anyone who opposes Israeli war crimes or anyone that critiques their continued colonization of Palestinians as terrorist sympathizers'... is to label anyone criticising those Israeli propagandists a terrorist sympathizer?
- seoaeu 5y ago
  No, plenty of critics aren't terrorist sympathizers. Some critics are openly sympathetic to Hamas and Co. Barring any context to the contrary, I'm naturally going to assume anyone complaining about being accused of being a terrorist sympathizer as belonging to the latter group. (It seems easy enough to clear up confusion by just saying "I oppose Hamas")

will4274 5y ago

> Guess what seemingly everyone in media/politics avoid? Would you be referring to the most-discussed conflict of all time? It's always funny to me when I hear on Reddit that "nobody talks" about Israeli war crimes. We're talking about it right now. Go look at Wikipedia's page of active conflicts - how many of them do you hear about the war crimes being committed? Coverage of Israeli war crimes is disproportionately *large* compared to other conflicts, not disproportionately small.