6 ms·

While I understand where you are coming from, I disagree. IDE tools are great performance enhancers, but they can also be crutches. I would always expect a pr

While I understand where you are coming from, I disagree. IDE tools are great performance enhancers, but they can also be crutches. I would always expect a professional software developer to be able to parse some code on a page and point out its syntax errors (as well as suggest edits). edit; here I am thinking about something more substancial then just a missing ';' or a lack of a closing "

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
megous 5y ago
Let's use (C++) something not common, but not all that crazy: bool x = false; x ||= something(); How many multi-lingual programmers will remember which one of the 7 languages they know does have a boolean assignment operators and which do not without looking it up? Does that make them unprofessional? How many do remember exact operator precedence rules for all those languages, when in practice you may need just the basic ones and use () to work around the lack of exact knowledge. Also which version? Something not working in PHP 7.3 may be ok in PHP 8, but company wants you to code in PHP 7.3, or ES5. In practice you get quickly acclimatized to any of the languages you know after working with them for a few days or a week, but good luck remembering exact rules of any of them at any given time when asked.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  You're not mentioning or alluding to the one obvious syntax error. I don't know how to spoiler it so I will say there is an issue on the second line that, again repeating, I don't know how to call out. And yes, I work in multiple languages.
  - leetcrew 5y ago
    also if you can't spot that error, you might not realize a subtle, yet important, detail about that line (if written correctly). contrary to what you might expect, it cannot short-circuit the way || does, leading to possible performance or even correctness issues.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      This is very true. I hope that people are not using the short-circuit feature in a way that impacts correctness! I would have an issue with that code for trying to be too clever even if there were no bugs and it worked well. Performance issues, on the other hand, I can see accidentally arising.
      - bryondowd 5y ago
        I see short-circuit for correct behavior all the time, most frequently in the format: if (pointer && pointer->member == value) Where you want to make sure a pointer you've been given isn't null before you try to dereference it. Without short-circuit, this becomes a segfault.
        HWR_14 5y ago
        Yes, the "and" pattern is common. I've seen plenty of "ensure this exists before operating on it" chains, where it even goes if ( pointer && pointer->otherPointer && pointer->otherPointer->member == value ) I've never seen someone use an "or" pattern in a non-confusing way. That is, I've seen "and" patterns that act as a safety/early out. I fail to see the use of an "or" pattern where you want to stop executing if the first value is true (ignoring using nots to invert the logic of an and pattern, and I would criticize that).
  - lucumo 5y ago
    That boolean assignment operator was addressed. Whether or not C++ has them (it doesn't) is exactly the point of that code snippet. They do exist in other languages. ES has it in exactly that form. Java has it in the |= form, not to be confused with the bitwise OR of the same form. Whether or not these short-circuit is not all that interesting for most boolean logic. (Though it can be useful to know if these are used as hacky error-handling and default-setting. It depends on how you read "something" whether or not that's going on here.)
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      > That boolean assignment operator was addressed. Where and when? Because I was the only person alluding to it, and the replies to my post. > Whether or not C++ has them (it doesn't) is exactly the point of that code snippet. C++ has boolean assignment operators that operate the way that the code is clearly meant to operate. That code does not have have a valid one. Where do you think Java got them from?
      - megous 5y ago
        C++ does not have boolean assignment operator in a sense the ||= syntax works in ES. https://www.w3schools.com/cpp/trycpp.asp?filename=demo_oper_ass8 https://www.w3schools.com/cpp/trycpp.asp?filename=demo_oper_... ||= will not assign anything unless the LHS variable is falsy. It will not even evaluate the right side unless LHS is falsy. |= will work the same in C++ and ES mostly (depending on types)
        HWR_14 5y ago
        I'm just thrown for a loop. Why is the default to assume I'm familiar with the ||= operator in ES? The fact that the ||= operator short circuits makes sense from an optimization point of view. I will maintain that there is no good use for the correctness (as opposed to optimization) of the code to depend on that feature.
      - lucumo 5y ago
        > > That boolean assignment operator was addressed. > Where and when? Because I was the only person alluding to it, and the replies to my post. The words "boolean assignment operator" are in the first sentence after the code snippet in megous' post. > C++ has boolean assignment operators that operate the way that the code is clearly meant to operate. That code does not have have a valid one. Where do you think Java got them from? As far as I can tell the |= operator in C++ is the same as in C, i.e. a bitwise OR operator. It works for booleans due to their bit pattern, but it's not the same. My C++ knowledge is extremely limited, so I looked it up and I may be misinformed though. Java's |= is different for ints and boolean. There are no bitwise operators for booleans: bool1 | bool2 is a strict logical operation (that doesn't short-circuit). bool1 |= bool2 is a logical operation that will fail when other types are mixed in. int1 |= int2 is a bitwise operation. Java does not have a short-circuiting ||= operation (but ES does). For the most part these differences aren't that important, but they do trip people up when switching between languages.
- AdrianB1 5y ago
  How many of the multi-lingual programmers that know 7 languages are really good in all 7? As an interviewer and hiring manager I am more impressed of people than know 2, max 3 languages very well than 7 at an intermediate level.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    I think you overestimate the value of being super intimate with any given language. Pretty much no language in common use is so different from the others that you drastically have to change how you express any given thing you're trying to do. Knowing concepts and when and how to apply them is more important in my considered opinion.
    - Frost1x 5y ago
      In my opinion, if you're hiring for an expert in a specific language, you're not hiring a software engineer, you're hiring X language developer or X language software engineer. The language needs to be explicit in the position listing and perhaps even job title. That's fine if that's what you want but be specific about it so you don't waste people's time looking for a language specialist when most people anymore are generalists that have all sorts of knowledge distributions for any given set of technologies but can most likely adapt and learn to fit your distribution of technology given just a bit of time and opportunity. Modern development requires juggling too many technologies for most people to specialize in a single language unless their career goal is to niche themselves to that language.
  - megous 5y ago
    Someone doing webdev fullstack for more than 10-15 years will know at minimum ES + (PHP/Python/Ruby/Java/Go...) + SQL + HTML/CSS and a few utility languages. So at least 4. If you combine webdev with something low level/embedded, you need at least one systems language, so you're at 5 languages you need to be proficient in. Add one hobby language or a second web backend or systems language, and you're at 6 major languages. 7 is a lot. But 5 is plausible to be proficient in for someone who switches between webdev and lowlevel stuff to not burn out, or has a FOSS hobby.
beberlei 5y ago
Yes! Because the IDE cannot help in Github Pull Request reviews for example.
- rendall 5y ago
  If a company did not run automatic tests and lints on whatever they felt was important to have when merging to production, to the fullest extent possible, I would stop everything and write those. This leaves reviewers free to focus on the intangibles: architecture, expressiveness, logic and data flow, and so on.
- RHSeeger 5y ago
  In my experience, Pull Requests aren't about catching syntax errors... the build will fail if there's errors like that. Rather, a Pull Request, and the code review involved, is about the underlying logic of the code; both with what it's doing it and how it's doing it.
smt88 5y ago
> they can also be crutches Yes, they are absolutely crutches. All great tools, libraries, and abstractions are crutches. I want programming to be easier for myself and my employees. The only problem with a crutch is that you might end up not having it when you need it. That's not an issue in this case. > here I am thinking about something more substancial then just a missing ';' or a lack of a closing " The original example that I was responded to was about an interviewer who expected their code to compile. That would include incredibly pedantic things. For example, if you're the kind of person who uses single quotes in JavaScript and then you're suddenly writing a different language where '' is different from "" and `` and $"" and whatever, you could easily make an unimportant mistake that prevents compiling.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

megous 5y ago

Let's use (C++) something not common, but not all that crazy: bool x = false; x ||= something(); How many multi-lingual programmers will remember which one of the 7 languages they know does have a boolean assignment operators and which do not without looking it up? Does that make them unprofessional? How many do remember exact operator precedence rules for all those languages, when in practice you may need just the basic ones and use () to work around the lack of exact knowledge. Also which version? Something not working in PHP 7.3 may be ok in PHP 8, but company wants you to code in PHP 7.3, or ES5. In practice you get quickly acclimatized to any of the languages you know after working with them for a few days or a week, but good luck remembering exact rules of any of them at any given time when asked.

HWR_14 5y ago
You're not mentioning or alluding to the one obvious syntax error. I don't know how to spoiler it so I will say there is an issue on the second line that, again repeating, I don't know how to call out. And yes, I work in multiple languages.
- leetcrew 5y ago
  also if you can't spot that error, you might not realize a subtle, yet important, detail about that line (if written correctly). contrary to what you might expect, it cannot short-circuit the way || does, leading to possible performance or even correctness issues.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    This is very true. I hope that people are not using the short-circuit feature in a way that impacts correctness! I would have an issue with that code for trying to be too clever even if there were no bugs and it worked well. Performance issues, on the other hand, I can see accidentally arising.
    - bryondowd 5y ago
      I see short-circuit for correct behavior all the time, most frequently in the format: if (pointer && pointer->member == value) Where you want to make sure a pointer you've been given isn't null before you try to dereference it. Without short-circuit, this becomes a segfault.
      - HWR_14 5y ago
        Yes, the "and" pattern is common. I've seen plenty of "ensure this exists before operating on it" chains, where it even goes if ( pointer && pointer->otherPointer && pointer->otherPointer->member == value ) I've never seen someone use an "or" pattern in a non-confusing way. That is, I've seen "and" patterns that act as a safety/early out. I fail to see the use of an "or" pattern where you want to stop executing if the first value is true (ignoring using nots to invert the logic of an and pattern, and I would criticize that).
- lucumo 5y ago
  That boolean assignment operator was addressed. Whether or not C++ has them (it doesn't) is exactly the point of that code snippet. They do exist in other languages. ES has it in exactly that form. Java has it in the |= form, not to be confused with the bitwise OR of the same form. Whether or not these short-circuit is not all that interesting for most boolean logic. (Though it can be useful to know if these are used as hacky error-handling and default-setting. It depends on how you read "something" whether or not that's going on here.)
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    > That boolean assignment operator was addressed. Where and when? Because I was the only person alluding to it, and the replies to my post. > Whether or not C++ has them (it doesn't) is exactly the point of that code snippet. C++ has boolean assignment operators that operate the way that the code is clearly meant to operate. That code does not have have a valid one. Where do you think Java got them from?
    - megous 5y ago
      C++ does not have boolean assignment operator in a sense the ||= syntax works in ES. https://www.w3schools.com/cpp/trycpp.asp?filename=demo_oper_ass8 https://www.w3schools.com/cpp/trycpp.asp?filename=demo_oper_... ||= will not assign anything unless the LHS variable is falsy. It will not even evaluate the right side unless LHS is falsy. |= will work the same in C++ and ES mostly (depending on types)
      - HWR_14 5y ago
        I'm just thrown for a loop. Why is the default to assume I'm familiar with the ||= operator in ES? The fact that the ||= operator short circuits makes sense from an optimization point of view. I will maintain that there is no good use for the correctness (as opposed to optimization) of the code to depend on that feature.
    - lucumo 5y ago
      > > That boolean assignment operator was addressed. > Where and when? Because I was the only person alluding to it, and the replies to my post. The words "boolean assignment operator" are in the first sentence after the code snippet in megous' post. > C++ has boolean assignment operators that operate the way that the code is clearly meant to operate. That code does not have have a valid one. Where do you think Java got them from? As far as I can tell the |= operator in C++ is the same as in C, i.e. a bitwise OR operator. It works for booleans due to their bit pattern, but it's not the same. My C++ knowledge is extremely limited, so I looked it up and I may be misinformed though. Java's |= is different for ints and boolean. There are no bitwise operators for booleans: bool1 | bool2 is a strict logical operation (that doesn't short-circuit). bool1 |= bool2 is a logical operation that will fail when other types are mixed in. int1 |= int2 is a bitwise operation. Java does not have a short-circuiting ||= operation (but ES does). For the most part these differences aren't that important, but they do trip people up when switching between languages.
AdrianB1 5y ago
How many of the multi-lingual programmers that know 7 languages are really good in all 7? As an interviewer and hiring manager I am more impressed of people than know 2, max 3 languages very well than 7 at an intermediate level.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  I think you overestimate the value of being super intimate with any given language. Pretty much no language in common use is so different from the others that you drastically have to change how you express any given thing you're trying to do. Knowing concepts and when and how to apply them is more important in my considered opinion.
  - Frost1x 5y ago
    In my opinion, if you're hiring for an expert in a specific language, you're not hiring a software engineer, you're hiring X language developer or X language software engineer. The language needs to be explicit in the position listing and perhaps even job title. That's fine if that's what you want but be specific about it so you don't waste people's time looking for a language specialist when most people anymore are generalists that have all sorts of knowledge distributions for any given set of technologies but can most likely adapt and learn to fit your distribution of technology given just a bit of time and opportunity. Modern development requires juggling too many technologies for most people to specialize in a single language unless their career goal is to niche themselves to that language.
- megous 5y ago
  Someone doing webdev fullstack for more than 10-15 years will know at minimum ES + (PHP/Python/Ruby/Java/Go...) + SQL + HTML/CSS and a few utility languages. So at least 4. If you combine webdev with something low level/embedded, you need at least one systems language, so you're at 5 languages you need to be proficient in. Add one hobby language or a second web backend or systems language, and you're at 6 major languages. 7 is a lot. But 5 is plausible to be proficient in for someone who switches between webdev and lowlevel stuff to not burn out, or has a FOSS hobby.

beberlei 5y ago

Yes! Because the IDE cannot help in Github Pull Request reviews for example.

rendall 5y ago
If a company did not run automatic tests and lints on whatever they felt was important to have when merging to production, to the fullest extent possible, I would stop everything and write those. This leaves reviewers free to focus on the intangibles: architecture, expressiveness, logic and data flow, and so on.
RHSeeger 5y ago
In my experience, Pull Requests aren't about catching syntax errors... the build will fail if there's errors like that. Rather, a Pull Request, and the code review involved, is about the underlying logic of the code; both with what it's doing it and how it's doing it.

smt88 5y ago

> they can also be crutches Yes, they are absolutely crutches. All great tools, libraries, and abstractions are crutches. I want programming to be easier for myself and my employees. The only problem with a crutch is that you might end up not having it when you need it. That's not an issue in this case. > here I am thinking about something more substancial then just a missing ';' or a lack of a closing " The original example that I was responded to was about an interviewer who expected their code to compile. That would include incredibly pedantic things. For example, if you're the kind of person who uses single quotes in JavaScript and then you're suddenly writing a different language where '' is different from "" and `` and $"" and whatever, you could easily make an unimportant mistake that prevents compiling.