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Once you’re coasting in the 400-500k FAANG range, what’s the optimal move to get 700-800k+? Seems there are too many graybeards to get a Principal title. Better

Once you’re coasting in the 400-500k FAANG range, what’s the optimal move to get 700-800k+? Seems there are too many graybeards to get a Principal title. Better to switch to manager role? Or VP eng type at some startup and hope your stock hits? Or maybe VP at some non tech company?

MikeTheRocker 5y ago
Wish I knew
gavinray 5y ago
What kind of a fairy tale is this -- 400, 500, 800k? I make ~110k, and I have no hobbies but code + contribute to a variety of OSS projects in my freetime. What sort of software do you have to be writing besides magic money printing machines for it to be worth that amount of money?
- the_only_law 5y ago
  > What sort of software do you have to be writing besides magic money printing machines for it to be worth that amount of money? My understanding is that you have to get into FAANG or be in certain roles at certain HFT firms. I’m also pretty sure these are TC numbers are large chunks of those numbers are stock options.
  - gavinray 5y ago
    Even in FAANG I have a hard time understanding how any developer is worth that amount of money though. I know a solid number of FAANG and ex-FAANG devs -- the stuff they work on (from what I've heard) isn't much different from the sorts of software I assume most people in SaaS startups work on. Outside of scale (which is significant). A lot of it is internal tooling though, which never hits absurd amounts of scale. I do know that there are x100 devs at FAANG that put out the groundbreaking projects that change landscapes -- but that's generally these well-known outlier developers for which there are a tiny handful in the world. HFT and quants I understand, that's money-printing business, FAANG I don't. But also, I've never worked or applied at FAANG, so I can't really form a valid opinion I suppose.
    - chucky_z 5y ago
      Currently at a medium-large company. I’ve saved the company 10 years worth of my salary in the first 6 months of my position and continue to make decisions to multiply spending power on things like research. I also try to make damn well sure everything we use is contributed too financially and we open source as much as possible.
    - the_only_law 5y ago
      I think with FAANG it’s mostly just down to them having insane valuation and being able to give out those stock options. The base salaries don’t seem particularly high, until maybe the highest levels.
      - bredren 5y ago
        Yes. When I hear a valley person mention salary, they usually bundle in stock compensation. The cash and other benefits are still ludicrous by any normal assessment but stock makes it unreal.
      - simpleguitar 5y ago
        If you look at FAANG earnings, their annual gross revenue (before expenses), is at least $1M per employee. Last time I looked Apple does $1.5M including all their Apple store employees. It's not just insane valuation. If the employees are bringing in $1M per head, you can afford to spend more on those who are making stuff.
        jeffreyrogers 5y ago
        It's still the case that most of the total comp is from RSUs, and often the people making $500k+ are making that because of appreciation in the stock price. Their initial offer wasn't that high.
      - hilbertseries 5y ago
        They’re not stock options, they’re RSUs or restricted stock units. And you can sell them whenever you want, inside the quarterly trading windows. It’s basically cash, it’s just tied to the company’s performance.
  - barrkel 5y ago
    RSUs - way more liquid than options, they're practically cash in the bank when they vest, but watch out for cliffs (i.e. vesting schedule). Amazon is particularly bad (tail weighted), Google is particularly generous (every month).
    - schreiaj 5y ago
      No cliff, but the vesting schedule is based on amount granted. For _most_ engineers it's likely monthly.
      - barrkel 5y ago
        Well sure, if you don't have enough to add up to a share every month then you won't get a share every month. If the price continues to rise and there's no stock split that will probably become more likely in the future.
- abledon 5y ago
  you could do performance optimization for a team on already established services inside GCP/AWS... you are literally saving Millions of $ a year if you optimize the services used by tens of thousands of other companies.
- tcbumperino 5y ago
  FAANG are magic money printing machines. That’s why they can afford so many bs side projects that don’t make any money. And I write software that consumes 50-100x my salary in resources, so I’m probably underpaid.
- sparker72678 5y ago
  Not sure what level you’re at but 150+ is pretty widely available for fully remote SWE positions.
- ryanSrich 5y ago
  CS grads can start at $225/yr at most FAANG cos. With zero years of experience. There’s really no secret here. It’s well known. Get a CS degree, know you’re interview questions well, and you’ll likely get in. It’s the interview that’s the real test. Also to be clear, that’s total comp. Not salary. Salary is closer to $150. I think most FAANG cos top out around $200k for salary, but I know several people making over $1m a year.
- steenreem 5y ago
  I think much of the software might be the same as at any another company. These companies are so profitable that they're willing to offer more $$$ to get slightly better people to do regular work slightly better than it's done on average.
sokoloff 5y ago
If you’re in that range, VP Eng at a startup is probably a lower expected value than staying put, unless you have very credible reasons to think that an exit is 9-18 months away.
JMTQp8lwXL 5y ago
I told myself I'd be fine at 300k. Now I'm there, and I've picked up more hobbies. Doesn't stop me from looking for new gigs, from time to time. Going super deep into optimizing for one thing might be a good short-term, but bad long-term proposition. A lot of getting to 700k, I imagine, is luck. So long as you're competent, it's right place, right time. You can't force that situation to happen, so it's wasted energy to invest further.
- gavinray 5y ago
  You would abandon your company and current position for a slight pay increase? Do you not actually care about the company you work for and you're just there for the pay? You make so much money already -- what is the thought process here Man imagine trying to hire people and knowing they would all leave in a heartbeat for a slight pay increase. What ever happened to working somewhere because you believe in what you're building and the people you're around bring you joy?
  - tcbumperino 5y ago
    Imagine caring about your employer who employs 100k+ other people and who would fire you without hesitation. (Or glee even.)
    - gavinray 5y ago
      Why would you ever work for a company that employs that many people and would treat you like shit? For the (slightly more) money? Well then that's your own doing, innit? The great thing about having any sort of skills is that you can pick and choose what you want to do with them. If you choose to work for someone like that, you're willingly subjecting yourself to misery, and to (probably) wasting some of the best years of your life working on things you don't give a flying fuck about. For people who also don't give a flying fuck. There are no fucks to be given -- the organization is, for lack of a better term, Fuckless. Working in a Fuckless org does not, as Marie Kondo would say, "Spark Joy". If you have to choose between: - $150k Salary @ small startup working on something you're passionate about with a close-knit team - $250k Salary @ $BIGCO to be COG_IN_WHEEL_#3356 The tradeoff you're making there is pretty clear I'm not a judgmental person and don't ride moral high-horses. Personally, I value happiness, mental wellbeing, and have a fulfilling life more than slightly more money. If you don't and you choose to subject yourself to all that awful stuff for the money, that's well and good, but you also can't turn around and complain about it or act like it's the only/a normal choice.
ketzo 5y ago
If the primary goal is compensation, management is pretty much always gonna be the answer; that, or lots of very lucky equity.
ryanSrich 5y ago
Even a super well funded startup isn’t going to pay you half of what you’re making at a FAANG if you’re at that level, even for a VP job. The best a startup will be able to do is mid 200s, maybe 300. Why not just stay at a FAANG if you’re already there and coasting? I couldn’t mentally handle working for a FAANG but if you’ve done it long enough and well enough to get to $600k per year you might at well just stick it out until you’re 40 and then retire.
alecst 5y ago
I know this is off topic, but what's missing from your life right now that those extra 300k+ will buy you? Just out of curiosity.
- sativallday 5y ago
  Currently making $430K. Upgrading to $720K. That $300K gives me more flexibility, mobility, and choice in just about anything I want to do. Totally removes any financial stressors.
  - lilsoso 5y ago
    Is this at a FAANG company? Could you advise how you reached that level of compensation? Is grinding hundreds of Leetcode problems necessary?
    - sativallday 5y ago
      Fake it til you make it. The game is all about perception/value. If you have a higher perceived value than actual value it plays to your benefit. You really need to turn around the interview on the interviewer. Best means of accomplishing this is to run through the technical evaluation as quick as possible, then turn the question around in terms of whether it would solve their current problems with what they're working on. It likely won't, so try to identify current problems within the organization/team/project. Dig into those problems and help identify solutions. Question the tradeoffs with the existing system and their current approach. Just offer solutions.
  - alecst 5y ago
    Are you willing to be more specific? I come from a pretty middle-class background. What financial stressors do you have?
naveen99 5y ago
Work on your own business ?

MikeTheRocker 5y ago

Wish I knew

gavinray 5y ago

What kind of a fairy tale is this -- 400, 500, 800k? I make ~110k, and I have no hobbies but code + contribute to a variety of OSS projects in my freetime. What sort of software do you have to be writing besides magic money printing machines for it to be worth that amount of money?

the_only_law 5y ago
> What sort of software do you have to be writing besides magic money printing machines for it to be worth that amount of money? My understanding is that you have to get into FAANG or be in certain roles at certain HFT firms. I’m also pretty sure these are TC numbers are large chunks of those numbers are stock options.
- gavinray 5y ago
  Even in FAANG I have a hard time understanding how any developer is worth that amount of money though. I know a solid number of FAANG and ex-FAANG devs -- the stuff they work on (from what I've heard) isn't much different from the sorts of software I assume most people in SaaS startups work on. Outside of scale (which is significant). A lot of it is internal tooling though, which never hits absurd amounts of scale. I do know that there are x100 devs at FAANG that put out the groundbreaking projects that change landscapes -- but that's generally these well-known outlier developers for which there are a tiny handful in the world. HFT and quants I understand, that's money-printing business, FAANG I don't. But also, I've never worked or applied at FAANG, so I can't really form a valid opinion I suppose.
  - chucky_z 5y ago
    Currently at a medium-large company. I’ve saved the company 10 years worth of my salary in the first 6 months of my position and continue to make decisions to multiply spending power on things like research. I also try to make damn well sure everything we use is contributed too financially and we open source as much as possible.
  - the_only_law 5y ago
    I think with FAANG it’s mostly just down to them having insane valuation and being able to give out those stock options. The base salaries don’t seem particularly high, until maybe the highest levels.
    - bredren 5y ago
      Yes. When I hear a valley person mention salary, they usually bundle in stock compensation. The cash and other benefits are still ludicrous by any normal assessment but stock makes it unreal.
    - simpleguitar 5y ago
      If you look at FAANG earnings, their annual gross revenue (before expenses), is at least $1M per employee. Last time I looked Apple does $1.5M including all their Apple store employees. It's not just insane valuation. If the employees are bringing in $1M per head, you can afford to spend more on those who are making stuff.
      - jeffreyrogers 5y ago
        It's still the case that most of the total comp is from RSUs, and often the people making $500k+ are making that because of appreciation in the stock price. Their initial offer wasn't that high.
    - hilbertseries 5y ago
      They’re not stock options, they’re RSUs or restricted stock units. And you can sell them whenever you want, inside the quarterly trading windows. It’s basically cash, it’s just tied to the company’s performance.
- barrkel 5y ago
  RSUs - way more liquid than options, they're practically cash in the bank when they vest, but watch out for cliffs (i.e. vesting schedule). Amazon is particularly bad (tail weighted), Google is particularly generous (every month).
  - schreiaj 5y ago
    No cliff, but the vesting schedule is based on amount granted. For _most_ engineers it's likely monthly.
    - barrkel 5y ago
      Well sure, if you don't have enough to add up to a share every month then you won't get a share every month. If the price continues to rise and there's no stock split that will probably become more likely in the future.
abledon 5y ago
you could do performance optimization for a team on already established services inside GCP/AWS... you are literally saving Millions of $ a year if you optimize the services used by tens of thousands of other companies.
tcbumperino 5y ago
FAANG are magic money printing machines. That’s why they can afford so many bs side projects that don’t make any money. And I write software that consumes 50-100x my salary in resources, so I’m probably underpaid.
sparker72678 5y ago
Not sure what level you’re at but 150+ is pretty widely available for fully remote SWE positions.
ryanSrich 5y ago
CS grads can start at $225/yr at most FAANG cos. With zero years of experience. There’s really no secret here. It’s well known. Get a CS degree, know you’re interview questions well, and you’ll likely get in. It’s the interview that’s the real test. Also to be clear, that’s total comp. Not salary. Salary is closer to $150. I think most FAANG cos top out around $200k for salary, but I know several people making over $1m a year.
steenreem 5y ago
I think much of the software might be the same as at any another company. These companies are so profitable that they're willing to offer more $$$ to get slightly better people to do regular work slightly better than it's done on average.

sokoloff 5y ago

If you’re in that range, VP Eng at a startup is probably a lower expected value than staying put, unless you have very credible reasons to think that an exit is 9-18 months away.

JMTQp8lwXL 5y ago

I told myself I'd be fine at 300k. Now I'm there, and I've picked up more hobbies. Doesn't stop me from looking for new gigs, from time to time. Going super deep into optimizing for one thing might be a good short-term, but bad long-term proposition. A lot of getting to 700k, I imagine, is luck. So long as you're competent, it's right place, right time. You can't force that situation to happen, so it's wasted energy to invest further.

gavinray 5y ago
You would abandon your company and current position for a slight pay increase? Do you not actually care about the company you work for and you're just there for the pay? You make so much money already -- what is the thought process here Man imagine trying to hire people and knowing they would all leave in a heartbeat for a slight pay increase. What ever happened to working somewhere because you believe in what you're building and the people you're around bring you joy?
- tcbumperino 5y ago
  Imagine caring about your employer who employs 100k+ other people and who would fire you without hesitation. (Or glee even.)
  - gavinray 5y ago
    Why would you ever work for a company that employs that many people and would treat you like shit? For the (slightly more) money? Well then that's your own doing, innit? The great thing about having any sort of skills is that you can pick and choose what you want to do with them. If you choose to work for someone like that, you're willingly subjecting yourself to misery, and to (probably) wasting some of the best years of your life working on things you don't give a flying fuck about. For people who also don't give a flying fuck. There are no fucks to be given -- the organization is, for lack of a better term, Fuckless. Working in a Fuckless org does not, as Marie Kondo would say, "Spark Joy". If you have to choose between: - $150k Salary @ small startup working on something you're passionate about with a close-knit team - $250k Salary @ $BIGCO to be COG_IN_WHEEL_#3356 The tradeoff you're making there is pretty clear I'm not a judgmental person and don't ride moral high-horses. Personally, I value happiness, mental wellbeing, and have a fulfilling life more than slightly more money. If you don't and you choose to subject yourself to all that awful stuff for the money, that's well and good, but you also can't turn around and complain about it or act like it's the only/a normal choice.

ketzo 5y ago

If the primary goal is compensation, management is pretty much always gonna be the answer; that, or lots of very lucky equity.

ryanSrich 5y ago

Even a super well funded startup isn’t going to pay you half of what you’re making at a FAANG if you’re at that level, even for a VP job. The best a startup will be able to do is mid 200s, maybe 300. Why not just stay at a FAANG if you’re already there and coasting? I couldn’t mentally handle working for a FAANG but if you’ve done it long enough and well enough to get to $600k per year you might at well just stick it out until you’re 40 and then retire.

alecst 5y ago

I know this is off topic, but what's missing from your life right now that those extra 300k+ will buy you? Just out of curiosity.

sativallday 5y ago
Currently making $430K. Upgrading to $720K. That $300K gives me more flexibility, mobility, and choice in just about anything I want to do. Totally removes any financial stressors.
- lilsoso 5y ago
  Is this at a FAANG company? Could you advise how you reached that level of compensation? Is grinding hundreds of Leetcode problems necessary?
  - sativallday 5y ago
    Fake it til you make it. The game is all about perception/value. If you have a higher perceived value than actual value it plays to your benefit. You really need to turn around the interview on the interviewer. Best means of accomplishing this is to run through the technical evaluation as quick as possible, then turn the question around in terms of whether it would solve their current problems with what they're working on. It likely won't, so try to identify current problems within the organization/team/project. Dig into those problems and help identify solutions. Question the tradeoffs with the existing system and their current approach. Just offer solutions.
- alecst 5y ago
  Are you willing to be more specific? I come from a pretty middle-class background. What financial stressors do you have?

naveen99 5y ago

Work on your own business ?