9 ms·

> a single use plastic object that has 1/1000 the carbon emissions of the reusable alternative may be the best environmental choice. Is there any data that sin

> a single use plastic object that has 1/1000 the carbon emissions of the reusable alternative may be the best environmental choice. Is there any data that single use stuff (of any kind) creates less carbon emissions? I would expect it to be the other way around, except for some edge cases.

Causality1 5y ago
Yes, mostly because of the energy used in their creation. For example you have to reuse a cotton grocery bag 7100 times before you break even with plastic bags for carbon footprint. https://www2.mst.dk/Udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-73-4.pdf https://www2.mst.dk/Udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-... You're probably not going to do that.
- Shacklz 5y ago
  Aren't the plastic bags mainly a problem because they tend to end up in places where they don't belong at all, like oceans etc.? They can't really decompose or anything like that, they just shred to tiny little pieces that mess with animals (and ultimately also our) digestion, no?
  - jounker 5y ago
    Yup. There are places where plastic bags accumulate. Once it was my doorstep. Every morning there were piles of plastic bags that were delivered to my house. Just take a trip along any river or stream near a town and you’ll find them swimming by like lifeless jellyfish
  - muskox2 5y ago
    And microplastics don't just mess with digestion, they're also theorized to be part of the reason fertility is dropping in humans over time.
- patall 5y ago
  You have not read the document that you link. Else, you would have noticed that it states that a not-organic cotton bag has to be reused 52 times for the same relative impact on climate change. The 7100 is impact on ozone depletion: p. 18: 'Conversely, for composite and cotton the very high number of reuse times is given by the ozone depletion impact alone. Without considering ozone depletion, the number of reuse times ranges from 50 to 1400 for conventional cotton, from 150 to 3800 for organic cotton, and from 0 to 740 for the composite material bag. The highest number is due to the use of water resource, but also to freshwater and terrestrial eutrophication'. And as I have commented elsewhere: I have cotton bags that I have easily used 500 times. If I had used an old T-shirt for the bag or later use the old bag for cleaning purposes, the 7,100 becomes very relative.
frosted-flakes 5y ago
There's plenty of data. For example, producing single-use plastic grocery bags uses such a trivial amount of energy and resources that it almost doesn't matter—thousands and thousands of times less than an equivalent cotton bag. The bigger problem is disposal. If single-use plastics can be safely sequestered in landfills, that's a mostly solved problem, but that isn't always the case.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  What about paper bags?
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    I seem to remember that paper bags are close to single-use plastic bags, but still use more energy to produce and also require wood pulp. Paper bags can easily be recycled, but "single-use" plastic bags can easily be re-used as household trash bags, or otherwise. So it's a toss-up.
    - kaybe 5y ago
      I've seen some grass cardboard pop up in the few deliveries we get. The wood pulp is probably negotiable and increasingly more so.
    - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
      > re-used as household trash bags But that’s a one-time reuse for something that’s not going to biodegrade when it ends up in the ocean or landfill
      - frosted-flakes 5y ago
        It should never end up in the ocean, and nothing really biodegrades in landfill, especially not paper.
        5y ago
mike_d 5y ago
The Reason Foundation (which is slightly right leaning of center, but makes its case using actual studies and facts) has a great explainer on how plastic bag bans for example hurt the environment more than help and cost consumers (including low income individuals) an extra $1b/yr: https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/files/california_plastic_bag_ban.pdf https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/files/california_plast...
- pharmakom 5y ago
  Does anywhere have an actual plastic bag ban? Usually it’s just a minimum price to discourage people from grabbing a new bag on every visit
  - mike_d 5y ago
    Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_lightweight_plastic_bags_in_the_United_States#Summary_of_plastic_bag_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_lightweight_plast...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- wk_end 5y ago
  Reason is a libertarian think tank. Describing them as “slightly right leaning of center” is really sugarcoating things - their whole raison d’etre is coming up with arguments to oppose virtually any and all government regulations. That doesn’t make them wrong necessarily, but let’s call a spade a spade.
- mint2 5y ago
  But there’s basically no reasonable way to say that single use plastic is good for the environment. They are clearly a local minima that has seemed tricky for the market to break out of. Unless they make a case that that single use bags are actually the global minima or the global minima is just not worth it, the reason foundation is being rather myoptic when presenting why people attempts to get out of the local minima are bad.

Causality1 5y ago

Yes, mostly because of the energy used in their creation. For example you have to reuse a cotton grocery bag 7100 times before you break even with plastic bags for carbon footprint. https://www2.mst.dk/Udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-73-4.pdf https://www2.mst.dk/Udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-... You're probably not going to do that.

Shacklz 5y ago
Aren't the plastic bags mainly a problem because they tend to end up in places where they don't belong at all, like oceans etc.? They can't really decompose or anything like that, they just shred to tiny little pieces that mess with animals (and ultimately also our) digestion, no?
- jounker 5y ago
  Yup. There are places where plastic bags accumulate. Once it was my doorstep. Every morning there were piles of plastic bags that were delivered to my house. Just take a trip along any river or stream near a town and you’ll find them swimming by like lifeless jellyfish
- muskox2 5y ago
  And microplastics don't just mess with digestion, they're also theorized to be part of the reason fertility is dropping in humans over time.
patall 5y ago
You have not read the document that you link. Else, you would have noticed that it states that a not-organic cotton bag has to be reused 52 times for the same relative impact on climate change. The 7100 is impact on ozone depletion: p. 18: 'Conversely, for composite and cotton the very high number of reuse times is given by the ozone depletion impact alone. Without considering ozone depletion, the number of reuse times ranges from 50 to 1400 for conventional cotton, from 150 to 3800 for organic cotton, and from 0 to 740 for the composite material bag. The highest number is due to the use of water resource, but also to freshwater and terrestrial eutrophication'. And as I have commented elsewhere: I have cotton bags that I have easily used 500 times. If I had used an old T-shirt for the bag or later use the old bag for cleaning purposes, the 7,100 becomes very relative.

frosted-flakes 5y ago

There's plenty of data. For example, producing single-use plastic grocery bags uses such a trivial amount of energy and resources that it almost doesn't matter—thousands and thousands of times less than an equivalent cotton bag. The bigger problem is disposal. If single-use plastics can be safely sequestered in landfills, that's a mostly solved problem, but that isn't always the case.

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
What about paper bags?
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  I seem to remember that paper bags are close to single-use plastic bags, but still use more energy to produce and also require wood pulp. Paper bags can easily be recycled, but "single-use" plastic bags can easily be re-used as household trash bags, or otherwise. So it's a toss-up.
  - kaybe 5y ago
    I've seen some grass cardboard pop up in the few deliveries we get. The wood pulp is probably negotiable and increasingly more so.
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    > re-used as household trash bags But that’s a one-time reuse for something that’s not going to biodegrade when it ends up in the ocean or landfill
    - frosted-flakes 5y ago
      It should never end up in the ocean, and nothing really biodegrades in landfill, especially not paper.
      - 5y ago

mike_d 5y ago

The Reason Foundation (which is slightly right leaning of center, but makes its case using actual studies and facts) has a great explainer on how plastic bag bans for example hurt the environment more than help and cost consumers (including low income individuals) an extra $1b/yr: https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/files/california_plastic_bag_ban.pdf https://reason.org/wp-content/uploads/files/california_plast...

pharmakom 5y ago
Does anywhere have an actual plastic bag ban? Usually it’s just a minimum price to discourage people from grabbing a new bag on every visit
- mike_d 5y ago
  Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_lightweight_plastic_bags_in_the_United_States#Summary_of_plastic_bag_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_lightweight_plast...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
wk_end 5y ago
Reason is a libertarian think tank. Describing them as “slightly right leaning of center” is really sugarcoating things - their whole raison d’etre is coming up with arguments to oppose virtually any and all government regulations. That doesn’t make them wrong necessarily, but let’s call a spade a spade.
mint2 5y ago
But there’s basically no reasonable way to say that single use plastic is good for the environment. They are clearly a local minima that has seemed tricky for the market to break out of. Unless they make a case that that single use bags are actually the global minima or the global minima is just not worth it, the reason foundation is being rather myoptic when presenting why people attempts to get out of the local minima are bad.