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i’m getting more worried about where Google is going with their accessibility strategy flutter and the canvas-based google docs are completely inaccessible

konaraddi 5y ago
> the canvas-based google docs are completely inaccessible AFAIK Google docs is still accessible. See the “Additional details” at the bottom of https://workspaceupdates.googleblog.com/2021/05/Google-Docs-Canvas-Based-Rendering-Update.html https://workspaceupdates.googleblog.com/2021/05/Google-Docs-...: Compatibility for supported assistive technologies such as screen readers, braille devices, and screen magnification features, will not be impacted by the canvas-based rendering change. We will continue to ensure assistive technology is supported, and work on additional accessibility improvements enabled by canvas-based rendering
- ushakov 5y ago
  see, they didn’t say that canvas-based Google Docs will be accessible - all they promise here is that it will be “compatible” “compatible” could just mean that assistive technology will work while browsing Google Docs and nothing beyond that this is a textbook example deceptive corporate doublespeak
  - arp242 5y ago
    What more do you want beyond "will work"? Does it not actually work now? What are the issues and practical concerns right now?
wffurr 5y ago
Have you tried using a screen reader with Flutter apps or the canvas-based Docs? From the very first result on “Flutter accessibility”: >> We strongly encourage you to include an accessibility checklist as a key criteria before shipping your app. Flutter is committed to supporting developers in making their apps more accessible, and includes first-class framework support for accessibility in addition to that provided by the underlying operating system https://flutter.dev/docs/development/accessibility-and-localization/accessibility https://flutter.dev/docs/development/accessibility-and-local...
- ushakov 5y ago
  encouraging accessibility is not enforcing accessibility edit: what i meant here is, instead of making the framework accessible out of the box, Google is trying to shift the responsibility to the developers
  - daviddever23box 5y ago
    Whose statutory responsibility is it to enforce accessibility? And by what methods? I'm not encouraging folks to flout this, but one needs to be quite specific as to what is required where, and for whom.
  - arp242 5y ago
    Enforced accessibility would be horrible. What if I want to make an application just for me? Or a game or something else where the basic concept isn't fundamentally accessible for blind people? A lot of the open source software I release is for one reason and one reason only: it's useful for me. I generally try to make it a bit useful for others as well, but that's mostly just a nice bonus. I do care about accessibility in general (actually, I've been meaning to ask Matt about accessibility on CLI programs) but it's not really something I think about on these kind of programs, just like I usually don't consider most use cases outside of my own. If someone were to bring it up then I'd see if something could be done (like any other issue people bring up), but this depends on my available time and "if I feel like it" as well. The alternative would be to never release it at all and keep it in my ~/code directory. I think that would be a loss.
    - mwcampbell 5y ago
      > (actually, I've been meaning to ask Matt about accessibility on CLI programs Assuming you meant me and not some other Matt, go ahead. In general, I'd say it's pretty hard to make line-oriented CLI programs inaccessible. Screen-oriented (e.g. ncurses-based) programs are, in my experience, harder to use with a screen reader, but still generally not terrible. Anyway, happy to answer any specific questions you have.
heavyset_go 5y ago
Several months ago I asked the Flutter engineering director[1] this question[2] on a Flutter 2 HN submission: > I don't understand how breaking accessibility with Flutter wouldn't mean that companies that use it on the web are violating the ADA. And didn't get a response. I'm still left wondering how a company that adopts Flutter on the web wouldn't be violating the ADA by breaking accessibility. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26335062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26335062
- daviddever23box 5y ago
  Your statement contains a misguided assumption that adoption of Flutter on the web explicitly breaks accessibility; it's no wonder that you didn't receive a response. Under 15 employees, Title I does not apply to an organization's website. Above that number, and, provided that it's part of the design phase, ADA Title I and/or Title III compliance can be achieved by ensuring that each element, attribute and operation is sufficiently tagged; this validation can be built into widget testing in the same manner as one might do for React components.
miki123211 5y ago
Flutter is (somewhat) accessible with the help of an alternate, hidden DOM, only provided if an "enable accessibility" button is pressed, for performance reasons. Unfortunately, some privacy zealots prevented web browsers from communicating that a screen reader was detected, so we need to press an extra button anytime we visit a Flutter app. Google Docs has had two relatively good accessibility implementations for a long time, none of which relied on the original DOM, which was hidden from screen readers. The default one relies on pushing raw strings for the screen reader to speak, while the other one (called Braille mode, as the first method couldn't provide braille display compatibility), uses more modern APIs to provide the required information in the DOM, relying on special announcements only where necessary.

konaraddi 5y ago

> the canvas-based google docs are completely inaccessible AFAIK Google docs is still accessible. See the “Additional details” at the bottom of https://workspaceupdates.googleblog.com/2021/05/Google-Docs-Canvas-Based-Rendering-Update.html https://workspaceupdates.googleblog.com/2021/05/Google-Docs-...: Compatibility for supported assistive technologies such as screen readers, braille devices, and screen magnification features, will not be impacted by the canvas-based rendering change. We will continue to ensure assistive technology is supported, and work on additional accessibility improvements enabled by canvas-based rendering

ushakov 5y ago
see, they didn’t say that canvas-based Google Docs will be accessible - all they promise here is that it will be “compatible” “compatible” could just mean that assistive technology will work while browsing Google Docs and nothing beyond that this is a textbook example deceptive corporate doublespeak
- arp242 5y ago
  What more do you want beyond "will work"? Does it not actually work now? What are the issues and practical concerns right now?

wffurr 5y ago

Have you tried using a screen reader with Flutter apps or the canvas-based Docs? From the very first result on “Flutter accessibility”: >> We strongly encourage you to include an accessibility checklist as a key criteria before shipping your app. Flutter is committed to supporting developers in making their apps more accessible, and includes first-class framework support for accessibility in addition to that provided by the underlying operating system https://flutter.dev/docs/development/accessibility-and-localization/accessibility https://flutter.dev/docs/development/accessibility-and-local...

ushakov 5y ago
encouraging accessibility is not enforcing accessibility edit: what i meant here is, instead of making the framework accessible out of the box, Google is trying to shift the responsibility to the developers
- daviddever23box 5y ago
  Whose statutory responsibility is it to enforce accessibility? And by what methods? I'm not encouraging folks to flout this, but one needs to be quite specific as to what is required where, and for whom.
- arp242 5y ago
  Enforced accessibility would be horrible. What if I want to make an application just for me? Or a game or something else where the basic concept isn't fundamentally accessible for blind people? A lot of the open source software I release is for one reason and one reason only: it's useful for me. I generally try to make it a bit useful for others as well, but that's mostly just a nice bonus. I do care about accessibility in general (actually, I've been meaning to ask Matt about accessibility on CLI programs) but it's not really something I think about on these kind of programs, just like I usually don't consider most use cases outside of my own. If someone were to bring it up then I'd see if something could be done (like any other issue people bring up), but this depends on my available time and "if I feel like it" as well. The alternative would be to never release it at all and keep it in my ~/code directory. I think that would be a loss.
  - mwcampbell 5y ago
    > (actually, I've been meaning to ask Matt about accessibility on CLI programs Assuming you meant me and not some other Matt, go ahead. In general, I'd say it's pretty hard to make line-oriented CLI programs inaccessible. Screen-oriented (e.g. ncurses-based) programs are, in my experience, harder to use with a screen reader, but still generally not terrible. Anyway, happy to answer any specific questions you have.

heavyset_go 5y ago

Several months ago I asked the Flutter engineering director[1] this question[2] on a Flutter 2 HN submission: > I don't understand how breaking accessibility with Flutter wouldn't mean that companies that use it on the web are violating the ADA. And didn't get a response. I'm still left wondering how a company that adopts Flutter on the web wouldn't be violating the ADA by breaking accessibility. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26335062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26335062

daviddever23box 5y ago
Your statement contains a misguided assumption that adoption of Flutter on the web explicitly breaks accessibility; it's no wonder that you didn't receive a response. Under 15 employees, Title I does not apply to an organization's website. Above that number, and, provided that it's part of the design phase, ADA Title I and/or Title III compliance can be achieved by ensuring that each element, attribute and operation is sufficiently tagged; this validation can be built into widget testing in the same manner as one might do for React components.

miki123211 5y ago

Flutter is (somewhat) accessible with the help of an alternate, hidden DOM, only provided if an "enable accessibility" button is pressed, for performance reasons. Unfortunately, some privacy zealots prevented web browsers from communicating that a screen reader was detected, so we need to press an extra button anytime we visit a Flutter app. Google Docs has had two relatively good accessibility implementations for a long time, none of which relied on the original DOM, which was hidden from screen readers. The default one relies on pushing raw strings for the screen reader to speak, while the other one (called Braille mode, as the first method couldn't provide braille display compatibility), uses more modern APIs to provide the required information in the DOM, relying on special announcements only where necessary.