4 ms·

The science, like the science saying fat and cholesterol are bad for you. > Even meat eaters don't get enough B12 and should supplement, because B12 comes from

by vimy 5y ago

The science, like the science saying fat and cholesterol are bad for you. > Even meat eaters don't get enough B12 and should supplement, because B12 comes from the food animals eat, and their feed is insufficient. Nope. Not having enough B12 is a rare condition. > If you don't just eat Oreos and white rice, you should be fine as a vegan. And yet, even vegan influencers get sick and start to eat meat again. And the argument is always “they must have done something wrong”.

colordrops 5y ago
Some vague notion about "vegan influencers" getting sick is the reason people shouldn't stop eating meat? Really?
- vimy 5y ago
  Vegans are deficit in b12: http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/784788https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16219987 http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/78... High fiber diets reduce serum half life of vitamin D3: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6299329 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6299329 Vegans have weaker bones due to lower calcium intake and vitamin D3 levels: http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/486478 http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullart... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21092700 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21092700 Vegans have a worse memory compared to non vegans due to creatine deficiency in vegans: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21118604 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21118604 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14561278 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14561278 Vegans have less gains compared to non vegans: http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/6/1032.full http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/6/1032.full Vegans are deficient in omega threes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16087975 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16087975 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16188209 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16188209 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323090 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323090 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323085 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323085 Vegans are deficit in carnitine: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21753065 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21753065 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2756917 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2756917 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1628441/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1628441/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11043928 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11043928 Vegans are deficient in taurine: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3354491 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3354491 Vegans are deficient in iodine: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12748410 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12748410 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21613354 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21613354 Vegans are deficient in Coenzyme Q10: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16873950 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16873950 Vegans are deficient in iron due to the fact that iron from plant sources is less bioavailable than iron from meat sources: https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Iron-HealthProfessional/ https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Iron-HealthProfessional/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11269606 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11269606 Vegans are deficient in vitamin A: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19103647 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19103647 http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/137/11/2346.full http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/137/11/2346.full http://healthybabycode.com/why-you-cant-get-vitamin-a-from-eating-vegetables http://healthybabycode.com/why-you-cant-get-vitamin-a-from-e... (studies linked in the article) https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091118072051.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091118072051.h... http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/betacarotene.htm http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/betacarotene.htm http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/71/6/1545.full http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/71/6/1545.full http://www.fasebj.org/content/23/4/1041.full http://www.fasebj.org/content/23/4/1041.full http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/beta-carotene-vitamin-a-myth http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/beta-carotene-vitamin... http://empoweredsustenance.com/true-vitamin-a-foods http://empoweredsustenance.com/true-vitamin-a-foods https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vitamin-a-vagary https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition... https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vitamin-a-saga https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition... https://philmaffetone.com/vitamin-a-and-the-beta-carotene-myth https://philmaffetone.com/vitamin-a-and-the-beta-carotene-my... Calcium in Rats https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3183773 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3183773 Magnesium and Oxalates https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15035687 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15035687 Vegans have a lower sperm count than non vegans: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/35465 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/35465 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257705/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257705/ Vegans have lower testosterone than non vegans: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1435181 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1435181 http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/42/1/127.abstract http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/42/1/127.abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/159772 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/159772 http://m.jap.physiology.org/content/82/1/49 http://m.jap.physiology.org/content/82/1/49 Veganism causes loss of libido and erectile dysfunction: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21353476 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21353476 Children who are raised on strict vegan diets do not grow normally: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4067152 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4067152 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8005079 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8005079 Children develop rickets after prolonged periods of strict vegetarian diets: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874810/pdf/canmedaj01383-0052.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874810/pdf/canm... "There are some links between vegetarians and lower birthweight and earlier labour" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7788369 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7788369 Most recent studies using more sensitive techniques for detecting B12 deficiency have found that 68% of vegetarians and 83% of vegans are B12 deficient, compared to just 5% off omnivores. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12816782 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12816782 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10966896 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10966896 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10552882 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10552882 --------------------------------- These are case studies: Cerebral atrophy in a vitamin B12-deficient infant of a vegetarian mother: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25076673 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25076673 Severe megaloblastic anemia in child breast fed by a vegetarian mother: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8442642 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8442642 Consequences of exclusive breast-feeding in vegan mother newborn - case report: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19748244 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19748244 Nutritional vitamin B12 deficiency in a breast-fed infant of a vegan-diet mother: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3948463 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3948463 "We report the case of a 7 month-old girl that presented with acute anemia, generalized muscular hypotonia and failure to thrive. Laboratory evaluation revealed cobalamin deficiency, due to a vegan diet of the mother." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18293883 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18293883
  - colordrops 5y ago
    I haven't had a chance to review all of these, but pretty much every one I've looked at is problematic, e.g. issues due to feeding newborns strict vegan diets, weird restricted diets like raw foods, differences in levels that aren't necessarily below unhealthy thresholds, effects on non-essential supplements, and other pathological cases. I could easily find a list of a hundred studies of problems with pathological meat eating diets, e.g. eating lots of salami, pure meat diets, etc. You should filter these to be relevant to normal vegan diets rather than try to overwhelm with a gish gallop. I challenge you to find a study showing health problems in vegans with a balanced normal diet.

by vimy 5y ago

colordrops 5y ago

Some vague notion about "vegan influencers" getting sick is the reason people shouldn't stop eating meat? Really?

vimy 5y ago
Vegans are deficit in b12: http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/784788https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16219987 http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/78... High fiber diets reduce serum half life of vitamin D3: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6299329 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6299329 Vegans have weaker bones due to lower calcium intake and vitamin D3 levels: http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/486478 http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullart... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21092700 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21092700 Vegans have a worse memory compared to non vegans due to creatine deficiency in vegans: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21118604 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21118604 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14561278 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14561278 Vegans have less gains compared to non vegans: http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/6/1032.full http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/6/1032.full Vegans are deficient in omega threes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16087975 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16087975 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16188209 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16188209 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323090 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323090 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323085 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323085 Vegans are deficit in carnitine: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21753065 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21753065 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2756917 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2756917 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1628441/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1628441/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11043928 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11043928 Vegans are deficient in taurine: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3354491 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3354491 Vegans are deficient in iodine: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12748410 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12748410 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21613354 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21613354 Vegans are deficient in Coenzyme Q10: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16873950 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16873950 Vegans are deficient in iron due to the fact that iron from plant sources is less bioavailable than iron from meat sources: https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Iron-HealthProfessional/ https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Iron-HealthProfessional/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11269606 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11269606 Vegans are deficient in vitamin A: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19103647 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19103647 http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/137/11/2346.full http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/137/11/2346.full http://healthybabycode.com/why-you-cant-get-vitamin-a-from-eating-vegetables http://healthybabycode.com/why-you-cant-get-vitamin-a-from-e... (studies linked in the article) https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091118072051.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091118072051.h... http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/betacarotene.htm http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/betacarotene.htm http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/71/6/1545.full http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/71/6/1545.full http://www.fasebj.org/content/23/4/1041.full http://www.fasebj.org/content/23/4/1041.full http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/beta-carotene-vitamin-a-myth http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/beta-carotene-vitamin... http://empoweredsustenance.com/true-vitamin-a-foods http://empoweredsustenance.com/true-vitamin-a-foods https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vitamin-a-vagary https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition... https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vitamin-a-saga https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition... https://philmaffetone.com/vitamin-a-and-the-beta-carotene-myth https://philmaffetone.com/vitamin-a-and-the-beta-carotene-my... Calcium in Rats https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3183773 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3183773 Magnesium and Oxalates https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15035687 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15035687 Vegans have a lower sperm count than non vegans: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/35465 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/35465 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257705/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257705/ Vegans have lower testosterone than non vegans: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1435181 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1435181 http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/42/1/127.abstract http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/42/1/127.abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/159772 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/159772 http://m.jap.physiology.org/content/82/1/49 http://m.jap.physiology.org/content/82/1/49 Veganism causes loss of libido and erectile dysfunction: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21353476 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21353476 Children who are raised on strict vegan diets do not grow normally: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4067152 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4067152 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8005079 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8005079 Children develop rickets after prolonged periods of strict vegetarian diets: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874810/pdf/canmedaj01383-0052.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874810/pdf/canm... "There are some links between vegetarians and lower birthweight and earlier labour" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7788369 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7788369 Most recent studies using more sensitive techniques for detecting B12 deficiency have found that 68% of vegetarians and 83% of vegans are B12 deficient, compared to just 5% off omnivores. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12816782 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12816782 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10966896 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10966896 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10552882 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10552882 --------------------------------- These are case studies: Cerebral atrophy in a vitamin B12-deficient infant of a vegetarian mother: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25076673 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25076673 Severe megaloblastic anemia in child breast fed by a vegetarian mother: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8442642 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8442642 Consequences of exclusive breast-feeding in vegan mother newborn - case report: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19748244 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19748244 Nutritional vitamin B12 deficiency in a breast-fed infant of a vegan-diet mother: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3948463 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3948463 "We report the case of a 7 month-old girl that presented with acute anemia, generalized muscular hypotonia and failure to thrive. Laboratory evaluation revealed cobalamin deficiency, due to a vegan diet of the mother." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18293883 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18293883
- colordrops 5y ago
  I haven't had a chance to review all of these, but pretty much every one I've looked at is problematic, e.g. issues due to feeding newborns strict vegan diets, weird restricted diets like raw foods, differences in levels that aren't necessarily below unhealthy thresholds, effects on non-essential supplements, and other pathological cases. I could easily find a list of a hundred studies of problems with pathological meat eating diets, e.g. eating lots of salami, pure meat diets, etc. You should filter these to be relevant to normal vegan diets rather than try to overwhelm with a gish gallop. I challenge you to find a study showing health problems in vegans with a balanced normal diet.