5 ms·

This seems to be mostly a history of ideas about devils and demons, but it also has things that sound like the oversimplified/mythologized versions of history t

This seems to be mostly a history of ideas about devils and demons, but it also has things that sound like the oversimplified/mythologized versions of history that neopagans come up with. Mainly this: > The traditional method of summoning demons involves drawing the sigil of your desired demon on the ground. If your summoning ritual is successful the demon will be conjured on the location of the sigil and be unable to move away from it. They are constrained to that particular location, and cannot affect anything beyond it. And then the list of sigils. Is that, or any other specific thing, the "traditional" way to summon demons?

classified 5y ago
Given the stigma attached to summoning demons I would expect a dearth of accurate historical documentation. Practitioners would have taken pains not to leave evidence of their activities.
- normac2 5y ago
  That's a fair assessment, and it's one of the reasons that neopagans have had to fill in a lot of gaps.
samatman 5y ago
Actually yes. There is an historical body of literature on various kinds of summoning magic, starting with the Picatrix. Those particular sigils are from the Lemegeton, also known as the Lesser Key of Solomon. Which verifiably predates the neopagans. The general idea of constraining the demon by writing its sigil and summoning it has existed for a long time, although in the Lesser Key (and most sources afaik) the demon is summoned into a triangle, with the sigil drawn within, and it is the triangle which constrains it. I can't recommend doing any of these things, but if someone wants to, I highly suggest not naively following the directions of a satirical blogpost.
- normac2 5y ago
  > I can't recommend doing any of these things, but if someone wants to, I highly suggest not naively following the directions of a satirical blogpost. Very interesting stuff. Regarding this part, are you saying that that the supernatural claims behind these rituals are real in some literal sense, or that they have psychological effects that might not be desirable?
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    One does not have to believe "that the supernatural claims behind these rituals are real in some literal sense" to be very wary of this sort of stuff - magick is not something that works along "literal" lines in the first place! Anything that you do in a serious magickal ritual (and if you're intending to "sell your soul", that definitely qualifies!) can have very real and long-lasting effects in the spiritual plane. That's what's especially troubling about this: it's definitely doing something, that something it's doing is going to be very much not-nice (since you're expressly intending to deal with malevolent beings) and we don't even know what exactly is happening! It's just madness unless you happen to be very familiar with this sort of left-hand path stuff, and even then there's plenty of reason to be very careful since you're straying way off from even most acknowledged "left-hand path" stuff (which is ultimately about skillfully leveraging evil and chaotic forces in ways that will accomplish some greater Good).
    - normac2 5y ago
      It sounds like you're referring to "spiritual plane" as something that is a distinct metaphysical entity that exists alongside what would be normally be seen as the natural world. (In this case I mean "metaphysical" in the philosophical sense.) I realize that "natural world" is a fraught concept in itself, but please take me in a common sense reading; basically what would be seen as natural in everyday conversation or depicted in a movie/book/etc. Maybe that concept should be expanded or contracted or eliminated to slice up the world in the most accurate ontology that we can, or maybe we should have no ontology at all. All of those are lines of argument that have been advanced by those who believe in religion, magic, etc. But as of right now the term "natural world" does have a current common sense interpretation that most people having good-faith discussions would recognize.

classified 5y ago

Given the stigma attached to summoning demons I would expect a dearth of accurate historical documentation. Practitioners would have taken pains not to leave evidence of their activities.

normac2 5y ago
That's a fair assessment, and it's one of the reasons that neopagans have had to fill in a lot of gaps.

samatman 5y ago

Actually yes. There is an historical body of literature on various kinds of summoning magic, starting with the Picatrix. Those particular sigils are from the Lemegeton, also known as the Lesser Key of Solomon. Which verifiably predates the neopagans. The general idea of constraining the demon by writing its sigil and summoning it has existed for a long time, although in the Lesser Key (and most sources afaik) the demon is summoned into a triangle, with the sigil drawn within, and it is the triangle which constrains it. I can't recommend doing any of these things, but if someone wants to, I highly suggest not naively following the directions of a satirical blogpost.

normac2 5y ago
> I can't recommend doing any of these things, but if someone wants to, I highly suggest not naively following the directions of a satirical blogpost. Very interesting stuff. Regarding this part, are you saying that that the supernatural claims behind these rituals are real in some literal sense, or that they have psychological effects that might not be desirable?
- zozbot234 5y ago
  One does not have to believe "that the supernatural claims behind these rituals are real in some literal sense" to be very wary of this sort of stuff - magick is not something that works along "literal" lines in the first place! Anything that you do in a serious magickal ritual (and if you're intending to "sell your soul", that definitely qualifies!) can have very real and long-lasting effects in the spiritual plane. That's what's especially troubling about this: it's definitely doing something, that something it's doing is going to be very much not-nice (since you're expressly intending to deal with malevolent beings) and we don't even know what exactly is happening! It's just madness unless you happen to be very familiar with this sort of left-hand path stuff, and even then there's plenty of reason to be very careful since you're straying way off from even most acknowledged "left-hand path" stuff (which is ultimately about skillfully leveraging evil and chaotic forces in ways that will accomplish some greater Good).
  - normac2 5y ago
    It sounds like you're referring to "spiritual plane" as something that is a distinct metaphysical entity that exists alongside what would be normally be seen as the natural world. (In this case I mean "metaphysical" in the philosophical sense.) I realize that "natural world" is a fraught concept in itself, but please take me in a common sense reading; basically what would be seen as natural in everyday conversation or depicted in a movie/book/etc. Maybe that concept should be expanded or contracted or eliminated to slice up the world in the most accurate ontology that we can, or maybe we should have no ontology at all. All of those are lines of argument that have been advanced by those who believe in religion, magic, etc. But as of right now the term "natural world" does have a current common sense interpretation that most people having good-faith discussions would recognize.