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Don't spot prices for energy fluctuate wildly especially now with renewables in the mix? What does it matter you lose 20% if the alternative is selling at a lo

Don't spot prices for energy fluctuate wildly especially now with renewables in the mix? What does it matter you lose 20% if the alternative is selling at a loss?

ElKrist 5y ago
Yes they fluctuate enough that you can make a profit even with a "20% loss". Here [1] you can see today's prices on the electricity spot market for Europe (Changing the date does not work in my browser though) Another way to say this is that there is a real economical value for storage because of the increase in renewables [1] https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix/les-donnees-de-marche https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix/les-donnees-de-marche
jakewins 5y ago
I mean, I suppose the purpose of these batteries are about seasonal rather than hourly differences.. but assuming you want to use them for something like coupling to a PV array and doing hourly trading: The alternative isn't selling at a loss, it's using technology with higher round trip efficiency. Say you have two batteries, both 1MW/4H systems, one lithium at 95% efficiency, one this CO2 thing at 80% effiency. In the highly volatile SE4 spot region in the Scandinavian grid, if you traded in 2019 you'd have made $80K USD with the CO2 battery, $155K USD with the Lithium one (assuming you traded perfectly). A tigher efficiency envelope lets you exploit many smaller 10-20% cost gaps, rather than having to sit for many days to wait for gaps in the 30-40% range. Not to say that Lithium would have a higher ROI over all than this technology, just to say that round trip efficiencies have significant impact on revenues here.
- ec109685 5y ago
  Isn’t the ROI all that matters since the cost to build the thing is it’s own efficiency loss, paid out over the lifetime of the project?
- flavius29663 5y ago
  Here is where you're wrong: you're thinking in terms of 4 to 1 power to storage. A CO2 battery can have a very large storage for 1MW. It could potentially have a storage of 40 hours. You keep charging it for months, and then release it all when there is a week long lull of wind and solar production. Such short bursts of energy are typical for Li-Ion batteries, but quite atypical for other forms of energy. It's the same principle as with the flow batteries.
jhgb 5y ago
It gets even better if you have your own generator. Electricity you can't sell immediately has zero value without storage, and you'll have increasing amounts of such electricity in the future.

Don't spot prices for energy fluctuate wildly especially now with renewables in the mix? What does it matter you lose 20% if the alternative is selling at a loss?

ElKrist 5y ago

Yes they fluctuate enough that you can make a profit even with a "20% loss". Here [1] you can see today's prices on the electricity spot market for Europe (Changing the date does not work in my browser though) Another way to say this is that there is a real economical value for storage because of the increase in renewables [1] https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix/les-donnees-de-marche https://www.rte-france.com/eco2mix/les-donnees-de-marche

jakewins 5y ago

I mean, I suppose the purpose of these batteries are about seasonal rather than hourly differences.. but assuming you want to use them for something like coupling to a PV array and doing hourly trading: The alternative isn't selling at a loss, it's using technology with higher round trip efficiency. Say you have two batteries, both 1MW/4H systems, one lithium at 95% efficiency, one this CO2 thing at 80% effiency. In the highly volatile SE4 spot region in the Scandinavian grid, if you traded in 2019 you'd have made $80K USD with the CO2 battery, $155K USD with the Lithium one (assuming you traded perfectly). A tigher efficiency envelope lets you exploit many smaller 10-20% cost gaps, rather than having to sit for many days to wait for gaps in the 30-40% range. Not to say that Lithium would have a higher ROI over all than this technology, just to say that round trip efficiencies have significant impact on revenues here.

ec109685 5y ago
Isn’t the ROI all that matters since the cost to build the thing is it’s own efficiency loss, paid out over the lifetime of the project?
flavius29663 5y ago
Here is where you're wrong: you're thinking in terms of 4 to 1 power to storage. A CO2 battery can have a very large storage for 1MW. It could potentially have a storage of 40 hours. You keep charging it for months, and then release it all when there is a week long lull of wind and solar production. Such short bursts of energy are typical for Li-Ion batteries, but quite atypical for other forms of energy. It's the same principle as with the flow batteries.

jhgb 5y ago

It gets even better if you have your own generator. Electricity you can't sell immediately has zero value without storage, and you'll have increasing amounts of such electricity in the future.