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In my experience, statements like the one you quoted are generally just made up on the spot, and the author adds phrases like "advanced nation" so he can weasel

In my experience, statements like the one you quoted are generally just made up on the spot, and the author adds phrases like "advanced nation" so he can weasel his way out if someone bothers to do a minimum of research and finds a counter example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#United_Ki... Oh look, the UK has 40 people in solitary confinement. I guess the UK doesn't qualify as an advanced nation then?

wombatmobile 5y ago
What would you consider makes a nation “advanced”?
- llampx 5y ago
  Being rich, I guess.
- agent327 5y ago
  I can think of several things, but perhaps more important here is that I didn't make the link between a nation being advanced and it locking people up in solitary confinement. Check my original post to see the argument I was making against using phrases like 'advanced nations' (it's just a cop out to hide the authors complete lack of research).
  - wombatmobile 5y ago
    I read your earlier post which is why I asked you to comment further, saying what you do think. I was looking to go deeper into the question of why futzing the question is even necessary. The reason I raised this issue is that solitary confinement in this circumstance, for a kid who clearly has shown some remorse and insight, and is a product of bad circumstances, doesn't seem very advanced. To me, an advanced nation is one that minimises the suffering of all its people, maximises their potential for happiness, and is well regarded by the other nations it engages with. A compassionate nation would take a kid like this and give him a second chance. An advanced nation would give him the coaching and the resources he'd need to succeed at it. How? It wouldn't happen in a vacuum. It wouldn't happen in solitary confinement. He'd need mentoring and coaching and some opportunities that only come through the social connections he didn't start with. If being advanced was only a matter of being rich, people might say nah, that would cost too much. But how much does it cost to leave things the way they are, with kids being locked up in solitary confinement, and ordinary citizens buying guns to protect themselves because they live in fear? You can do the math. Well, I suppose society has done the math, and that's why it is like it is, and "advanced nations" have nuclear weapons, space programs, and sophisticated financial derivatives. But what if the assumptions underlying the valuations of each of those things are broken? What if a more sophisticated social intelligence could rejig the value table in favour of a prison system that rehabilitates prisoners more than it rewards shareholders? Who would win from that? Quite possibly everybody. The nation in 20 years might be more advanced than it is today. Can you imagine that?
    - agent327 5y ago
      >The reason I raised this issue is that solitary confinement in this circumstance, for a kid who clearly has shown some remorse and insight, and is a product of bad circumstances, doesn't seem very advanced. True: it's _barbaric_, the complete opposite of advanced. However, this also highlights that a nation can be advanced in some areas, yet backward in others - and in fact I would argue this is necessarily the case for all countries, all the time, because the standard of being advanced in all areas all the time is an impossibly high bar. Is the US an advanced nation? It's hard to argue against that: it has put people on the moon, invented the microchip, etc. And apart from technological advancement it has championed social ideas that are (or were) very different from much of the rest of the world, yet are arguably for the best: a government without a king, uncompromising free speech, etc. But it's also a hard, harsh, uncaring country, inhabited by people that seem to have forgotten the word 'compromise', where a minor medical problem can cripple you for life (medically and financially), where a minor misdemeanor can mean life in prison. Its prison system is indeed a great example of that. I can only hope that it isn't 'advanced' in these areas; that the rest of the world will not eventually grow into the same state. Ultimately, the two of us are having a completely different discussion. I'm simply pointing out that the author of the article is simply lying for dramatic effect when he says no other advanced nations use solitary confinement as a punishment; that he uses the word 'advanced' to hide behind in case someone looks on wikipedia for five seconds and finds out he is wrong. I don't really care about the word 'advanced', or what it means: he could have said "no other countries that have the color blue in their flag use solitary confinement as a punishment", as (to me) it would have had the exact same meaning. You, OTOH, see an opportunity to advance the general state of affairs in the US. I agree that ending some of its more barbaric practices would be a good idea, but I'm not in a position to help, seeing as how I'm a citizen of another country, located on another continent. I don't have a congressman that I can write to, nor the ability to cast any vote in a relevant election. So I can only root for you, and hope you succeed in reforming the US prison system.
rxhernandez 5y ago
40 people for the whole country? That doesn't sound "routine." The article mentions that there are 80,000 in any given day for the US.
- agent327 5y ago
  I disagree quite strongly with this. Yes, 40 is a smaller number than 80,000, but those are 40 _people_ whose lives and sanity have been thrown away. Apparently the bar is low enough that this punishment can be applied to at least 40 individuals. Also, you compare to the US. Much of the world, advanced or not, has the bar set at zero.
  - rxhernandez 5y ago
    I don't think anyone should be in solitary confinement so I don't think you disagree with me. I'm merely stating that the article wasn't wrong.

wombatmobile 5y ago

What would you consider makes a nation “advanced”?

llampx 5y ago
Being rich, I guess.
agent327 5y ago
I can think of several things, but perhaps more important here is that I didn't make the link between a nation being advanced and it locking people up in solitary confinement. Check my original post to see the argument I was making against using phrases like 'advanced nations' (it's just a cop out to hide the authors complete lack of research).
- wombatmobile 5y ago
  I read your earlier post which is why I asked you to comment further, saying what you do think. I was looking to go deeper into the question of why futzing the question is even necessary. The reason I raised this issue is that solitary confinement in this circumstance, for a kid who clearly has shown some remorse and insight, and is a product of bad circumstances, doesn't seem very advanced. To me, an advanced nation is one that minimises the suffering of all its people, maximises their potential for happiness, and is well regarded by the other nations it engages with. A compassionate nation would take a kid like this and give him a second chance. An advanced nation would give him the coaching and the resources he'd need to succeed at it. How? It wouldn't happen in a vacuum. It wouldn't happen in solitary confinement. He'd need mentoring and coaching and some opportunities that only come through the social connections he didn't start with. If being advanced was only a matter of being rich, people might say nah, that would cost too much. But how much does it cost to leave things the way they are, with kids being locked up in solitary confinement, and ordinary citizens buying guns to protect themselves because they live in fear? You can do the math. Well, I suppose society has done the math, and that's why it is like it is, and "advanced nations" have nuclear weapons, space programs, and sophisticated financial derivatives. But what if the assumptions underlying the valuations of each of those things are broken? What if a more sophisticated social intelligence could rejig the value table in favour of a prison system that rehabilitates prisoners more than it rewards shareholders? Who would win from that? Quite possibly everybody. The nation in 20 years might be more advanced than it is today. Can you imagine that?
  - agent327 5y ago
    >The reason I raised this issue is that solitary confinement in this circumstance, for a kid who clearly has shown some remorse and insight, and is a product of bad circumstances, doesn't seem very advanced. True: it's _barbaric_, the complete opposite of advanced. However, this also highlights that a nation can be advanced in some areas, yet backward in others - and in fact I would argue this is necessarily the case for all countries, all the time, because the standard of being advanced in all areas all the time is an impossibly high bar. Is the US an advanced nation? It's hard to argue against that: it has put people on the moon, invented the microchip, etc. And apart from technological advancement it has championed social ideas that are (or were) very different from much of the rest of the world, yet are arguably for the best: a government without a king, uncompromising free speech, etc. But it's also a hard, harsh, uncaring country, inhabited by people that seem to have forgotten the word 'compromise', where a minor medical problem can cripple you for life (medically and financially), where a minor misdemeanor can mean life in prison. Its prison system is indeed a great example of that. I can only hope that it isn't 'advanced' in these areas; that the rest of the world will not eventually grow into the same state. Ultimately, the two of us are having a completely different discussion. I'm simply pointing out that the author of the article is simply lying for dramatic effect when he says no other advanced nations use solitary confinement as a punishment; that he uses the word 'advanced' to hide behind in case someone looks on wikipedia for five seconds and finds out he is wrong. I don't really care about the word 'advanced', or what it means: he could have said "no other countries that have the color blue in their flag use solitary confinement as a punishment", as (to me) it would have had the exact same meaning. You, OTOH, see an opportunity to advance the general state of affairs in the US. I agree that ending some of its more barbaric practices would be a good idea, but I'm not in a position to help, seeing as how I'm a citizen of another country, located on another continent. I don't have a congressman that I can write to, nor the ability to cast any vote in a relevant election. So I can only root for you, and hope you succeed in reforming the US prison system.

rxhernandez 5y ago

40 people for the whole country? That doesn't sound "routine." The article mentions that there are 80,000 in any given day for the US.

agent327 5y ago
I disagree quite strongly with this. Yes, 40 is a smaller number than 80,000, but those are 40 _people_ whose lives and sanity have been thrown away. Apparently the bar is low enough that this punishment can be applied to at least 40 individuals. Also, you compare to the US. Much of the world, advanced or not, has the bar set at zero.
- rxhernandez 5y ago
  I don't think anyone should be in solitary confinement so I don't think you disagree with me. I'm merely stating that the article wasn't wrong.