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Heartbreaking. A US citizen is likely not fully aware of the caprice and barbarity of the criminal justice system until it touches their lives somehow, but once

Heartbreaking. A US citizen is likely not fully aware of the caprice and barbarity of the criminal justice system until it touches their lives somehow, but once seen it cannot be unseen. I have a cousin in prison 10 years into a 20 year stretch, and my horror at her conviction led to my emigrating to more civilized lands. Edit: she's "Elizabeth Crafton" in this article https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexcampbell/these-mothers-were-sentenced-to-at-least-10-years-for-failin https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexcampbell/these-moth...

ALittleLight 5y ago
Just from reading a couple articles about Elizabeth Crafton in that county her story sounds horrific. It seems like she knowingly exposed her children to a violent person who beat and tortured them. She observed injuries "appearing" on her daughter and knew her boyfriend was violent and never connected the dots? I do think the criminal justice system in the US is deeply flawed and needs lots and lots of reform... But I'm not really seeing the problem with a conviction for a woman who would expose her children to this. Is there additional context you can add? "The child was literally beaten from head to toe... She was bruised on the top of her head to the bottom of her feet. The girl, who suffered some brain damage, had cigarette burns, a skull fracture and a broken wrist... https://www.oklahoman.com/article/3521061/man-kills-self-after-child-abuse-conviction-in-miami-ok https://www.oklahoman.com/article/3521061/man-kills-self-aft... https://www.enidnews.com/oklahoma/how-laws-meant-to-protect-children-can-fail-mothers/article_664353dc-526a-11ea-b56d-23d2d61bd0a3.html https://www.enidnews.com/oklahoma/how-laws-meant-to-protect-...
- verall 5y ago
  Yea it's terrible but she got 20 years while the man who beat her child got 11.
- rendall 5y ago
  I've never met Elizabeth, so I couldn't say for sure whether she knew or not, but it doesn't make sense given how much I know she loves her kids. It makes more sense to me that if she saw signs that she didn't want to believe it, rather than that she knew and approved. Regardless, I can't see how in a just system she would get nearly twice the sentence of the man who actually did it, especially when even the prosecutor admits she didn't abuse the children and wasn't in the house when it occurred. Look, I get it. We want to believe that if someone gets 20 years, it must be reasonable in some way. I'm probably biased, but I just can't see it, here.
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    If your point is that the boyfriend should have gotten a greater punishment, then I wholeheartedly agree. About the boyfriend we can at least say that he had the decency to kill himself. However, I understood you as saying that the Justice system was too harsh on Elizabeth and not that it was insufficiently harsh on her boyfriend. I don't think I'm looking at it from the "Someone who gets 20 years must deserve it" perspective. In fact, I was predisposed to support her. You referenced her as being mistreated by the Justice System, which I already doubt, and linked to an article describing her the same way and without any detail. It's only when I read the horrific abuse that she allowed a person she knew to be a violent abuser to inflict on her fifteen month old daughter that I changed my mind. I wasn't on the jury and I don't know nearly all the details, but there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with what I do know - a mother who lets her daughter be brutally tortured should be in prison. As an aside, I also noticed that you write as if a single instance of abuse occurred. The news articles describe it as a pattern of abuse over time. Eventually Elizabeth decided to take the baby to the hospital. It's not like she was out one day, came home and saw her injured child, took her to the hospital, and was blamed for it. Instead, she ignored bruises and wounds on her baby, after leaving that baby in the company of a man who regularly beat her. Eventually she did take the child to the hospital, which is good, but it doesn't exonerate her.
    - rendall 5y ago
      Abuse of children is a horrific crime that shuts people's ability to think. Maybe that's why you're reading a lot into the article that's not actually there. > The news articles describe it as a pattern of abuse over time. Neither article does this. Or, if I'm wrong, I'm sure you can post a quote directly from from the article that avers this. Or maybe it's from another article? Could you post this please? > It's only when I read the horrific abuse that she allowed... The only quote about that is from the prosecutor, talking to the press: "The child was literally beaten from head to toe," said Ben Loring, assistant district attorney. "She was bruised on the top of her head to the bottom of her feet. The girl, who suffered some brain damage, had cigarette burns, a skull fracture and a broken wrist." Truly awful. But nothing there about a repeated pattern of allowing torture. Nothing there about Elizabeth knowing about it. Even that same guy, Loring, mentioned in both articles, thinks Elizabeth has done her time.
forcry 5y ago
> Heartbreaking.. Civilized society is just an illusion. Imagine. How many people with power and authority must have known about Ian Manuel, and did nothing about it. What is civlilized about that? And finally the action had to come from a non-government body, even after the POTUS banned the thing?
- rendall 5y ago
  > Civilized society is just an illusion. It's a fragile, flickering flame, for sure. Many don't understand how fragile. I don't think it's an illusion, personally, but I can see that in more situations than not it's non-existent.
ur-whale 5y ago
> her conviction led to my emigrating to more civilized lands Here's to hoping you left the US altogether.
- rendall 5y ago
  I don't understand why you'd say something like that.
  - ur-whale 5y ago
    Because who would want to live in a place like this?

ALittleLight 5y ago

Just from reading a couple articles about Elizabeth Crafton in that county her story sounds horrific. It seems like she knowingly exposed her children to a violent person who beat and tortured them. She observed injuries "appearing" on her daughter and knew her boyfriend was violent and never connected the dots? I do think the criminal justice system in the US is deeply flawed and needs lots and lots of reform... But I'm not really seeing the problem with a conviction for a woman who would expose her children to this. Is there additional context you can add? "The child was literally beaten from head to toe... She was bruised on the top of her head to the bottom of her feet. The girl, who suffered some brain damage, had cigarette burns, a skull fracture and a broken wrist... https://www.oklahoman.com/article/3521061/man-kills-self-after-child-abuse-conviction-in-miami-ok https://www.oklahoman.com/article/3521061/man-kills-self-aft... https://www.enidnews.com/oklahoma/how-laws-meant-to-protect-children-can-fail-mothers/article_664353dc-526a-11ea-b56d-23d2d61bd0a3.html https://www.enidnews.com/oklahoma/how-laws-meant-to-protect-...

verall 5y ago
Yea it's terrible but she got 20 years while the man who beat her child got 11.
rendall 5y ago
I've never met Elizabeth, so I couldn't say for sure whether she knew or not, but it doesn't make sense given how much I know she loves her kids. It makes more sense to me that if she saw signs that she didn't want to believe it, rather than that she knew and approved. Regardless, I can't see how in a just system she would get nearly twice the sentence of the man who actually did it, especially when even the prosecutor admits she didn't abuse the children and wasn't in the house when it occurred. Look, I get it. We want to believe that if someone gets 20 years, it must be reasonable in some way. I'm probably biased, but I just can't see it, here.
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  If your point is that the boyfriend should have gotten a greater punishment, then I wholeheartedly agree. About the boyfriend we can at least say that he had the decency to kill himself. However, I understood you as saying that the Justice system was too harsh on Elizabeth and not that it was insufficiently harsh on her boyfriend. I don't think I'm looking at it from the "Someone who gets 20 years must deserve it" perspective. In fact, I was predisposed to support her. You referenced her as being mistreated by the Justice System, which I already doubt, and linked to an article describing her the same way and without any detail. It's only when I read the horrific abuse that she allowed a person she knew to be a violent abuser to inflict on her fifteen month old daughter that I changed my mind. I wasn't on the jury and I don't know nearly all the details, but there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with what I do know - a mother who lets her daughter be brutally tortured should be in prison. As an aside, I also noticed that you write as if a single instance of abuse occurred. The news articles describe it as a pattern of abuse over time. Eventually Elizabeth decided to take the baby to the hospital. It's not like she was out one day, came home and saw her injured child, took her to the hospital, and was blamed for it. Instead, she ignored bruises and wounds on her baby, after leaving that baby in the company of a man who regularly beat her. Eventually she did take the child to the hospital, which is good, but it doesn't exonerate her.
  - rendall 5y ago
    Abuse of children is a horrific crime that shuts people's ability to think. Maybe that's why you're reading a lot into the article that's not actually there. > The news articles describe it as a pattern of abuse over time. Neither article does this. Or, if I'm wrong, I'm sure you can post a quote directly from from the article that avers this. Or maybe it's from another article? Could you post this please? > It's only when I read the horrific abuse that she allowed... The only quote about that is from the prosecutor, talking to the press: "The child was literally beaten from head to toe," said Ben Loring, assistant district attorney. "She was bruised on the top of her head to the bottom of her feet. The girl, who suffered some brain damage, had cigarette burns, a skull fracture and a broken wrist." Truly awful. But nothing there about a repeated pattern of allowing torture. Nothing there about Elizabeth knowing about it. Even that same guy, Loring, mentioned in both articles, thinks Elizabeth has done her time.

forcry 5y ago

> Heartbreaking.. Civilized society is just an illusion. Imagine. How many people with power and authority must have known about Ian Manuel, and did nothing about it. What is civlilized about that? And finally the action had to come from a non-government body, even after the POTUS banned the thing?

rendall 5y ago
> Civilized society is just an illusion. It's a fragile, flickering flame, for sure. Many don't understand how fragile. I don't think it's an illusion, personally, but I can see that in more situations than not it's non-existent.

ur-whale 5y ago

> her conviction led to my emigrating to more civilized lands Here's to hoping you left the US altogether.

rendall 5y ago
I don't understand why you'd say something like that.
- ur-whale 5y ago
  Because who would want to live in a place like this?