6 ms·

Just because men do a bad thing, doesn't mean every single man is responsible for that. Not to mention all men have mothers, and they play a huge part in how th

by proc0 5y ago

Just because men do a bad thing, doesn't mean every single man is responsible for that. Not to mention all men have mothers, and they play a huge part in how their children grow up to treat others. To solve a problem, the root cause must be found, and the root cause of harassment is NOT other men. Sure men could help, but articles like this seem to demand it, like they're yelling at men, as a group, for the actions of individuals. This doesn't make sense, and it doesn't help either.

ekager 5y ago
wow! love this groundbreaking take. "it's not men's fault, it's their mom's fault".
- mc32 5y ago
  Well, it may not be the fault of the bad actors' mothers but it's _also_ not the fault of the bad actors' other peers who happen to be men, unless the peers are bad too, (as well as the mothers if they happen to be bad too). We all know stereotyping is not the way to go.
- manicdee 5y ago
  Who socialises boys differently to girls? “Boys will be boys” “That is just his way of saying he likes you” etc It is a societal problem where the vast majority of people give boys a long leash for bad behaviour and then expect men to acquire good habits from somewhere on their own between childhood and adolescence. It is not men’s fault that they were socialised and habituated by people who tolerated or even encouraged poor behaviour.
bluefirebrand 5y ago
The assumption is that somehow every man is complicit. Like we all know about every bad thing that happens to women in our lives and workplace. Not only that, it assumes we have the power to fix things or make changes and we just choose not to. I don't know about other men but it absolutely alienates me from "the cause". I'm not having anything to do with people who start out by assuming I'm part of their problem.
- jm__87 5y ago
  I find articles like this annoying but this woman doesn't speak for all women in tech. Presumably some women can relate to her experiences, others can't. Some women will agree with her proposed solutions, others won't. Assuming the goal here is just to provide a workplace where women are treated fairly and not subject to harassment, I think that is a fair thing to ask for. I agree that as a man, it shouldn't be my job to police other men. If a woman comes to me and asks me for help with something, I will try to help her, but I'm not going to monitor interactions between my male and female colleagues for improper behavior.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    > I'm not going to monitor interactions between my male and female colleagues for improper behavior. That's cool. If I steal somebody's wallet at work, you've got my back?
    - jm__87 5y ago
      This isn't really a fair comparison. If someone is doing something blatantly and obviously illegal, then that is different. If I saw a male coworker punch a female coworker in the face, then obviously I am going to do something. I'm assuming the majority of workplace interactions that women have issue with are not blatantly and obviously illegal. Advances/flirting that is unwanted, crude jokes, condescension, etc. I have no idea if a woman is perceiving an interaction with a male colleague as one of these things without her telling me. I don't know what kind of relationship she has with this guy who is engaging in this behavior. I feel it would be premature of me to assume that every time I saw something that I think a woman would perceive as harassment that she is actually perceiving this as harassment AND that she needs my help to deal with it. Many women are perfectly capable of sticking up for themselves and don't want or need a "white knight" to rush in and help them.
neom 5y ago
Good article: Not all men - how discussing womens issues gets derailed: https://slate.com/technology/2014/05/not-all-men-how-discussing-womens-issues-gets-derailed.html https://slate.com/technology/2014/05/not-all-men-how-discuss...
mthoms 5y ago
>Just because men do a bad thing, doesn't mean every single man is responsible for that. Where in the heck did you get that from? The author made no such claim. Anywhere. I also didn't feel like the author was "yelling at men". I felt she was trying to get us to understand her frustration. Confident, respectful men don't get offended by posts like this. She's not talking about me (generally speaking that is - I know I'll never be perfect). But, I also know that I can help. I can be an ally. I don't mind being reminded of that. Sheesh, the early comments here tell me that the author could actually be understating the problem.
- ekager 5y ago
  appreciate you here mthoms
- proc0 5y ago
  The tone of the article is dealing in general terms. For example the closing part: > Next time you go to ask yourself why women in tech are so angry, ask yourself why you’re not angry with them. Is that for everyone? It sounds to be directed at the party that would not be angry, which is hyperbole for caring, and why would any women not care about this issue? Therefore this sounds like it's directed at men, at least implicitly. It's an angry article after all, why wouldn't it be pointing fingers. I'm just saying there's no one to blame but the individual culprits of those behaviors / actions.
  - mthoms 5y ago
    Change "women" to "black people" in the sentence you quoted and it's not at all controversial. That is to say — white people who aren't guilty of racism in their industry should still be angry about the racism that does exist in it. It's the same general principle.
    - proc0 5y ago
      i disagree, that is group-think and unfortunately the status quo right now is to encourage group-think. This is why someone who has nothing to do with something can be responsible for actions of someone else... because they are part of the same "group".
bitwize 5y ago
Women as a class are harassed and worse by men because men as a class allow it. They may not even be aware if it -- male privilege affords them that. Men have the moral obligation to get aware of it, and to take action to ensure that the male culture that allows it is ended. This requires cultivation of difficult skills such as shutting up, not mansplaining, and listening to women speaking their truth. And prioritizing the human rights of women over solidarity with their bros.
- jm__87 5y ago
  Do you believe you have power to change how other women behave towards men? Because I as a guy, have little to no power to change what other guys believe about women or how their beliefs affect their behavior towards women.
  - Volundr 5y ago
    As a guy, I pretty strongly disagree with this. I may not be able to change their beliefs, but by actively calling out their behavior, I can sure as heck change their behavior. When people know that saying something awful or treating someone poorly is going to make for a really awkward conversation at best, and possibly lead to being socially ostracized, they tend not to do those things.
    - jm__87 5y ago
      Maybe you are particularly persuasive, but the guys I have known who harassed women would not take anyone seriously if they were told they are being inappropriate. They may stop in that moment but will go right back to it the next day. Based on my own experiences, men who are fairly conscientious to begin with and listen when someone tells them they are being jerk are generally not the problem.
- proc0 5y ago
  So you're saying women need men's protection?
sealeck 5y ago
This ignores pretty much all evidence to the contrary – attempting to place ideology above realism.

by proc0 5y ago

ekager 5y ago

wow! love this groundbreaking take. "it's not men's fault, it's their mom's fault".

mc32 5y ago
Well, it may not be the fault of the bad actors' mothers but it's _also_ not the fault of the bad actors' other peers who happen to be men, unless the peers are bad too, (as well as the mothers if they happen to be bad too). We all know stereotyping is not the way to go.
manicdee 5y ago
Who socialises boys differently to girls? “Boys will be boys” “That is just his way of saying he likes you” etc It is a societal problem where the vast majority of people give boys a long leash for bad behaviour and then expect men to acquire good habits from somewhere on their own between childhood and adolescence. It is not men’s fault that they were socialised and habituated by people who tolerated or even encouraged poor behaviour.

bluefirebrand 5y ago

The assumption is that somehow every man is complicit. Like we all know about every bad thing that happens to women in our lives and workplace. Not only that, it assumes we have the power to fix things or make changes and we just choose not to. I don't know about other men but it absolutely alienates me from "the cause". I'm not having anything to do with people who start out by assuming I'm part of their problem.

jm__87 5y ago
I find articles like this annoying but this woman doesn't speak for all women in tech. Presumably some women can relate to her experiences, others can't. Some women will agree with her proposed solutions, others won't. Assuming the goal here is just to provide a workplace where women are treated fairly and not subject to harassment, I think that is a fair thing to ask for. I agree that as a man, it shouldn't be my job to police other men. If a woman comes to me and asks me for help with something, I will try to help her, but I'm not going to monitor interactions between my male and female colleagues for improper behavior.
- klyrs 5y ago
  > I'm not going to monitor interactions between my male and female colleagues for improper behavior. That's cool. If I steal somebody's wallet at work, you've got my back?
  - jm__87 5y ago
    This isn't really a fair comparison. If someone is doing something blatantly and obviously illegal, then that is different. If I saw a male coworker punch a female coworker in the face, then obviously I am going to do something. I'm assuming the majority of workplace interactions that women have issue with are not blatantly and obviously illegal. Advances/flirting that is unwanted, crude jokes, condescension, etc. I have no idea if a woman is perceiving an interaction with a male colleague as one of these things without her telling me. I don't know what kind of relationship she has with this guy who is engaging in this behavior. I feel it would be premature of me to assume that every time I saw something that I think a woman would perceive as harassment that she is actually perceiving this as harassment AND that she needs my help to deal with it. Many women are perfectly capable of sticking up for themselves and don't want or need a "white knight" to rush in and help them.

neom 5y ago

Good article: Not all men - how discussing womens issues gets derailed: https://slate.com/technology/2014/05/not-all-men-how-discussing-womens-issues-gets-derailed.html https://slate.com/technology/2014/05/not-all-men-how-discuss...

mthoms 5y ago

>Just because men do a bad thing, doesn't mean every single man is responsible for that. Where in the heck did you get that from? The author made no such claim. Anywhere. I also didn't feel like the author was "yelling at men". I felt she was trying to get us to understand her frustration. Confident, respectful men don't get offended by posts like this. She's not talking about me (generally speaking that is - I know I'll never be perfect). But, I also know that I can help. I can be an ally. I don't mind being reminded of that. Sheesh, the early comments here tell me that the author could actually be understating the problem.

ekager 5y ago
appreciate you here mthoms
proc0 5y ago
The tone of the article is dealing in general terms. For example the closing part: > Next time you go to ask yourself why women in tech are so angry, ask yourself why you’re not angry with them. Is that for everyone? It sounds to be directed at the party that would not be angry, which is hyperbole for caring, and why would any women not care about this issue? Therefore this sounds like it's directed at men, at least implicitly. It's an angry article after all, why wouldn't it be pointing fingers. I'm just saying there's no one to blame but the individual culprits of those behaviors / actions.
- mthoms 5y ago
  Change "women" to "black people" in the sentence you quoted and it's not at all controversial. That is to say — white people who aren't guilty of racism in their industry should still be angry about the racism that does exist in it. It's the same general principle.
  - proc0 5y ago
    i disagree, that is group-think and unfortunately the status quo right now is to encourage group-think. This is why someone who has nothing to do with something can be responsible for actions of someone else... because they are part of the same "group".

bitwize 5y ago

Women as a class are harassed and worse by men because men as a class allow it. They may not even be aware if it -- male privilege affords them that. Men have the moral obligation to get aware of it, and to take action to ensure that the male culture that allows it is ended. This requires cultivation of difficult skills such as shutting up, not mansplaining, and listening to women speaking their truth. And prioritizing the human rights of women over solidarity with their bros.

jm__87 5y ago
Do you believe you have power to change how other women behave towards men? Because I as a guy, have little to no power to change what other guys believe about women or how their beliefs affect their behavior towards women.
- Volundr 5y ago
  As a guy, I pretty strongly disagree with this. I may not be able to change their beliefs, but by actively calling out their behavior, I can sure as heck change their behavior. When people know that saying something awful or treating someone poorly is going to make for a really awkward conversation at best, and possibly lead to being socially ostracized, they tend not to do those things.
  - jm__87 5y ago
    Maybe you are particularly persuasive, but the guys I have known who harassed women would not take anyone seriously if they were told they are being inappropriate. They may stop in that moment but will go right back to it the next day. Based on my own experiences, men who are fairly conscientious to begin with and listen when someone tells them they are being jerk are generally not the problem.
proc0 5y ago
So you're saying women need men's protection?

sealeck 5y ago

This ignores pretty much all evidence to the contrary – attempting to place ideology above realism.