9 ms·

Why women in tech are so angry all the time

59 points by ink_13 5y ago

Bostonian 5y ago
If the goal is to have more women in tech, the messaging is wrong. If women in tech are "so angry all the time", that does not encourage a company to hire women, women to enter the field, or parents to encourage their daughters to consider a tech careers.
- mthoms 5y ago
  What "messaging"? The point the author is making is that the anger is wholly justified. Would it make you feel better if women pretended everything was okay? How on earth would that help young girls considering tech careers? Should young women entering the workforce also pretend everything is okay? When does it end? I'm going to assume you didn't mean it, but this comment came across to me as tone-deaf victim blaming. In fact, it sounds exactly like the kind of flippant and dismissive responses the author complained about. It's no wonder women in tech are angry.
proc0 5y ago
Just because men do a bad thing, doesn't mean every single man is responsible for that. Not to mention all men have mothers, and they play a huge part in how their children grow up to treat others. To solve a problem, the root cause must be found, and the root cause of harassment is NOT other men. Sure men could help, but articles like this seem to demand it, like they're yelling at men, as a group, for the actions of individuals. This doesn't make sense, and it doesn't help either.
- ekager 5y ago
  wow! love this groundbreaking take. "it's not men's fault, it's their mom's fault".
  - mc32 5y ago
    Well, it may not be the fault of the bad actors' mothers but it's _also_ not the fault of the bad actors' other peers who happen to be men, unless the peers are bad too, (as well as the mothers if they happen to be bad too). We all know stereotyping is not the way to go.
  - manicdee 5y ago
    Who socialises boys differently to girls? “Boys will be boys” “That is just his way of saying he likes you” etc It is a societal problem where the vast majority of people give boys a long leash for bad behaviour and then expect men to acquire good habits from somewhere on their own between childhood and adolescence. It is not men’s fault that they were socialised and habituated by people who tolerated or even encouraged poor behaviour.
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  The assumption is that somehow every man is complicit. Like we all know about every bad thing that happens to women in our lives and workplace. Not only that, it assumes we have the power to fix things or make changes and we just choose not to. I don't know about other men but it absolutely alienates me from "the cause". I'm not having anything to do with people who start out by assuming I'm part of their problem.
  - jm__87 5y ago
    I find articles like this annoying but this woman doesn't speak for all women in tech. Presumably some women can relate to her experiences, others can't. Some women will agree with her proposed solutions, others won't. Assuming the goal here is just to provide a workplace where women are treated fairly and not subject to harassment, I think that is a fair thing to ask for. I agree that as a man, it shouldn't be my job to police other men. If a woman comes to me and asks me for help with something, I will try to help her, but I'm not going to monitor interactions between my male and female colleagues for improper behavior.
    - klyrs 5y ago
      > I'm not going to monitor interactions between my male and female colleagues for improper behavior. That's cool. If I steal somebody's wallet at work, you've got my back?
      - jm__87 5y ago
        This isn't really a fair comparison. If someone is doing something blatantly and obviously illegal, then that is different. If I saw a male coworker punch a female coworker in the face, then obviously I am going to do something. I'm assuming the majority of workplace interactions that women have issue with are not blatantly and obviously illegal. Advances/flirting that is unwanted, crude jokes, condescension, etc. I have no idea if a woman is perceiving an interaction with a male colleague as one of these things without her telling me. I don't know what kind of relationship she has with this guy who is engaging in this behavior. I feel it would be premature of me to assume that every time I saw something that I think a woman would perceive as harassment that she is actually perceiving this as harassment AND that she needs my help to deal with it. Many women are perfectly capable of sticking up for themselves and don't want or need a "white knight" to rush in and help them.
- neom 5y ago
  Good article: Not all men - how discussing womens issues gets derailed: https://slate.com/technology/2014/05/not-all-men-how-discussing-womens-issues-gets-derailed.html https://slate.com/technology/2014/05/not-all-men-how-discuss...
- mthoms 5y ago
  >Just because men do a bad thing, doesn't mean every single man is responsible for that. Where in the heck did you get that from? The author made no such claim. Anywhere. I also didn't feel like the author was "yelling at men". I felt she was trying to get us to understand her frustration. Confident, respectful men don't get offended by posts like this. She's not talking about me (generally speaking that is - I know I'll never be perfect). But, I also know that I can help. I can be an ally. I don't mind being reminded of that. Sheesh, the early comments here tell me that the author could actually be understating the problem.
  - ekager 5y ago
    appreciate you here mthoms
  - proc0 5y ago
    The tone of the article is dealing in general terms. For example the closing part: > Next time you go to ask yourself why women in tech are so angry, ask yourself why you’re not angry with them. Is that for everyone? It sounds to be directed at the party that would not be angry, which is hyperbole for caring, and why would any women not care about this issue? Therefore this sounds like it's directed at men, at least implicitly. It's an angry article after all, why wouldn't it be pointing fingers. I'm just saying there's no one to blame but the individual culprits of those behaviors / actions.
    - mthoms 5y ago
      Change "women" to "black people" in the sentence you quoted and it's not at all controversial. That is to say — white people who aren't guilty of racism in their industry should still be angry about the racism that does exist in it. It's the same general principle.
      - proc0 5y ago
        i disagree, that is group-think and unfortunately the status quo right now is to encourage group-think. This is why someone who has nothing to do with something can be responsible for actions of someone else... because they are part of the same "group".
- bitwize 5y ago
  Women as a class are harassed and worse by men because men as a class allow it. They may not even be aware if it -- male privilege affords them that. Men have the moral obligation to get aware of it, and to take action to ensure that the male culture that allows it is ended. This requires cultivation of difficult skills such as shutting up, not mansplaining, and listening to women speaking their truth. And prioritizing the human rights of women over solidarity with their bros.
  - jm__87 5y ago
    Do you believe you have power to change how other women behave towards men? Because I as a guy, have little to no power to change what other guys believe about women or how their beliefs affect their behavior towards women.
    - Volundr 5y ago
      As a guy, I pretty strongly disagree with this. I may not be able to change their beliefs, but by actively calling out their behavior, I can sure as heck change their behavior. When people know that saying something awful or treating someone poorly is going to make for a really awkward conversation at best, and possibly lead to being socially ostracized, they tend not to do those things.
      - jm__87 5y ago
        Maybe you are particularly persuasive, but the guys I have known who harassed women would not take anyone seriously if they were told they are being inappropriate. They may stop in that moment but will go right back to it the next day. Based on my own experiences, men who are fairly conscientious to begin with and listen when someone tells them they are being jerk are generally not the problem.
  - proc0 5y ago
    So you're saying women need men's protection?
- sealeck 5y ago
  This ignores pretty much all evidence to the contrary – attempting to place ideology above realism.
bayofpigs 5y ago
When you're fat every negative slight is perceived to be caused by discrimination against your weight. This is the same but for 'females in tech.' Terrible things happen to everyone all the time. That's life. No reason to blame it on your particular flavor of victimhood.
ARandomerDude 5y ago
Here's the problem. Not one of these tips is "work hard and try be a the best at what you do." Instead, she leads with tips on how to be a proactive bridge-burner. Death threats, discrimination, etc. are obviously insane, but a lot of this frustration is self-induced. > Call out bad behavior you see or hear about, even when it’s uncomfortable. > Help to report offenders. > Give credit to and call out great work you see from the women you work with. > Offer to share your compensation packages to help your women-in-tech peers know their worth. > Advocate in your own teams for debiasing the interview/promotion process. > Advocate for events you're attending or organizing to include a more diverse set of voices and refer underrepresented experts you know for opportunities. > Don't rely on marginalized groups to educate you. > Listen to and believe women.
- lochlainn 5y ago
  This feels like a non-solution; implying that working harder solves mistreatment simply glosses over the work that women do, and could implicitly associate harassment with "poor performance".
- mc32 5y ago
  The issue here is it's asking women to be activists. Few companies want activists. Most companies want to achieve fairness and equal opportunity, but they also do not like agitators (because one can never have control over agitators, you never can know their next target, so to be safe, most companies tend to not want them around). It's the same conundrum with double agents. You agree with them helping your intelligence org, but you can never fully trust them. You cannot control their motivations (unless you hold their family hostage like they did in the USSR, etc.) From that standpoint, this is not good advice. Leadership is key. You have to schmooze leadership and convince them it's the right thing, but not via these activist methods.
  - mthoms 5y ago
    Substitute race for gender and this argument totally falls apart. If you see a black colleague being treated unfairly and do nothing because you don't want to be seen as an "agitator" or "activist" then you are part of the problem. Full stop. The same goes for women.
readflaggedcomm 5y ago
>Next time you go to ask yourself why women in tech are so angry, ask yourself why you’re not angry with them. I'm not angry with you, I'm saddened. You've told them they've gotten to you deeply, and provided a blueprint on how to go further. Want to be angry? Keep feeding the trolls. Is that the plan? Why? Edit: I don't understand this response and silence. You all want this?
- dabockster 5y ago
  At some point you have to document it and take the risk. Otherwise, it keeps being a he-said-she-said game restricted to internal HR reports and nothing improves.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tootahe45 5y ago
Does anybody find it strange how there's never a single post by man in female dominated industry? Yet i see headlines about 'women in tech', almost every day. And please can we call it IT, not 'tech'. As a dev, 'tech' always sounded as though you were doing things much harder than IT.
- ekager 5y ago
  no
- ink_13 5y ago
  > Does anybody find it strange how there's never a single post by man in female dominated industry? I don't know what point you're trying to communicate here. Which female dominated industries do you regularly see discussed on Hacker News? > And please call it IT, not 'tech' Why should anyone do this? I have worked in tech for 20 years and refer to it as such.
- klyrs 5y ago
  Weird take on a news site focused on tech. Posts about other industries are often met with 'why is this here?' But anyway, is there a female-dominated industry that promises upward mobility that men are clamoring for acceptance in and failing to get it? And, speak for yourself, I only did IT when I was in high school and now I work in cutting edge technolgy.
  - takoid 5y ago
    The cutting edge technology you work in wouldn’t happen to be information related, would it?
    - klyrs 5y ago
      All of matter is 'information related', until the heat death of the universe. What's the purpose of your question?
- erik_seaberg 5y ago
  Network admins and software developers have different goals, and pretty much every company bigger than three had us in different sections of the org chart. Calling it all “IT” will be misunderstood.
jessedhillon 5y ago
Edit: removed. I should take my own advice.
- ekager 5y ago
  Women discussing their personal experiences is "controversial"? And we "should expect" trolling and harassment and worse? That's exactly the problem. You think that that's normal and acceptable.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jessedhillon 5y ago
    For the record, I didn't say any of this. It's not controversial to talk about your experience. It's certainly controversial to generalize your experience across an entire industry, or sex. And it's not acceptable to be harassed, but yes it's normal and not specific to women.
    - ekager 5y ago
      So when ~50% of women working in tech have experienced harassment is that enough of a pattern to generalize? Or does it need to be 100% before we can talk about it? https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/40percent-of-women-in-tech-say-theyve-been-harassed-by-boss-or-investor.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/40percent-of-women-in-tech-s... Beyond that, harassment is not the only problem I talked about.
      - jessedhillon 5y ago
        I don't trust the results of anonymous online surveys, nor should you. It's amazing that any organization purporting to be journalistic would report such results, but those are the times we live in, I guess. Anyway, my comment was about base rates of harassment received by anyone saying anything critical of anyone else: they are high, no matter who you are and what you are saying. It's not right, but it's not limited to women.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bArray 5y ago
Every comment so far has been downvoted, I have some internet points to spend. > My first thought was someone had mailed me anthrax. That's your first thought? The harassment later described sounds insane - if you are receiving death threats call the police, open a case. It'll strengthen your position if you later need to go to court. What you don't do is post about it online, to let your attacker know they were successful. Also, don't doxx your own address. If you need to receive mail and post an address online, there are forwarding services - some even offer to search the mail. I somewhat find the claim incredible though - if you honestly believe you are in immediate danger, most people do something about it. > Most of us, however, experience constant microaggressions. The term 'microaggression' doesn't make sense to me, if it's aggression then call it out as such. If it's not meaningful enough to be called out, then you need a better coping mechanism. > [..] it truly feels like the cancerous misogynistic tumors in our industry in particular run so deep that we may never be able to bisect them all. Either Silicon Valley produces the worst work culture out there (and homelessness), or I would suggest that you find yourself in a bubble. I think as a general rule, if you believe <some group> to have almost entirely evil intent, then you don't understand them or have some internal bias. People generally don't try or believe themselves to be the villains of their own stories. > Listen to and believe women. You go from wanting equality to special treatment. I treat all people with scepticism, but they are innocent until proven guilty. That's how justice works. In general I feel sad for the author. Anything you try hard enough to find, you will eventually find. I hope instead of trying to find sexism in tech industry, the author tries to find happiness.
- herschel666 5y ago
  Looks like you're the prototype of the spoiled brat that populates the male part of the tech industry. You think when you're able to solve a technical problem, you're able to solve every problem. That's the common combination of arrogance & ignorance so many other dudes are sporting. It got boring long ago.
  - bArray 5y ago
    > Looks like you're the prototype of the spoiled brat that populates the male part of the tech industry. If you claim it to be true, it must be. There's no possible way your world view could be wrong. > You think when you're able to solve a technical problem, you're able to solve every problem. Are there any other thoughts you can tell me I hold? There's no need for me to actually express an opinion given you already know how I think. > That's the common combination of arrogance & ignorance so many other dudes are sporting. Arrogance would perhaps be assuming you can determine who I am by hearing just one opinion I hold. As somebody once said: 'It got boring long ago.'
herschel666 5y ago
So now this post got flagged, because some men are even too weak to bear another person's opinion. slow clap
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
andreskytt 5y ago
I do apologize. People, including me, don’t go spend their lives talking to computers because they are great at talking to people. I’m bad at reading social context, probably on the autism spectrum and many of my colleagues over the last 30 years have been like me. There’s a high chance I’ve expressed what’s called a microagression in the post without intending to so. I can’t tell. I often can’t even tell I offended someone completely unintentionally. I’m a difficult person to be around, there many others like me. And I can’t get better although I have learned to keep myself away from people and be very careful about any interaction, I’m not remotely “normal”. So maybe it just helps talking to people? There appear to be many jerks around, sure. But I’m willing to bet many of these microagressions are simply a result of social ineptitude. If someone told me I stepped on their toes (some have), I can be more careful around them and assure them of no bad intentions.
- st3fan 5y ago
  Please read the following for more viewpoints on this topic https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Autism_is_to_blame https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Autism_is_to_blame I'd like to add that I am really disappointed that this "So maybe it just helps talking to people?" comment is at the top of the comments here. It is incredibly tone deaf and borderline victim blaming. It is such an easy explanation that many people here will accept. Yet it is a fallacy, out of touch with reality. Does anyone really think that the "on the spectum" workforce is the reason for the systemic issues in the tech industry?!
- dabockster 5y ago
  Diagnosed autistic person here. I do not use my medical condition as an excuse to create microagressions of any sort. In fact, I consider using autism as an "out" in this case to be selfish to both the person being offended as well as everyone out there with diagnosed autism. If you're able to go to work everyday and function in society without any extra assistance, then you do not get a pass to insult others needlessly. Go home and rethink your life.
skinkestek 5y ago
Let me start by saying that I've seen some really horrible and disgusting treatment of women compared to men. At one place. Out of 10. At least around here I also see that if two persons, one woman and one man, apply for the same position, and they are seen as exactly equally qualified, the woman gets hired first. Why? Because amount of women in the department is a KPI. I also see men walking circles around these issues, taking quite a lot more stupidity from a girl than from a man. I tried to wait a few weeks with one particular know-it-all that was a master in my field (or so she behaved) after 18 months of work. There are many brilliant women in tech, and then there is those that get paid as dev evangelist and get people booted from PyCon after listening in to someone elses conversation for something far less insulting then whatever she herself had posted publicly on Twitter short time before. I think the actual women in tech would do well to stand up to these who abuse it. And if you live in the Nordics at least and experience actual discrimination, look for a new job.
- st3fan 5y ago
  > At least around here I also see that if two persons, one woman and one man, apply for the same position, and they are seen as exactly equally qualified, the woman gets hired first. Why? Because amount of women in the department is a KPI. Explain why this is a problem? You say these two candidates are equally great. Should the man have been picked?
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    No, absolutely not. I'm just pointing out that at least around here, and in the companies I want to work in, women has an advantage from before they are hired. I don't think this is necessarily true in USA and many other places. But together with the PyCon story and others where men are massively disadvantaged while everyone pretend it is always easy for all men it might explain a bit of the feelings you sometimes see.
    - st3fan 5y ago
      It is interesting that you say "men are massively disadvantaged". Because as a hiring manager I can tell you that my experience is that usually for engineering positions, 99 out of 100 applicants are ... men ...
zozbot234 5y ago
This "women are so angry" stuff is just a damaging, sexist stereotype. Men are far more aggressive than women, and nobody's calling them "angry" as a result. What an awful, clickbait article.
- ekager 5y ago
  Did you actually read the article?
  - klyrs 5y ago
    Vouched, despite this generally being against the guidelines, because this isn't actually a question. GP wouldn't be so dismissive if they'd read the article. Many women in tech, myself and the author included, are angry, because of how we're treated. The fact that this plays into a stereotype that's used as a dismissal is a problem we need to talk about. Related issue: abuse victims are less productive at work, because of the abuse. Trump said the quiet part loud: "He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren't captured." That's subtext behind every claim of a "pipeline problem."
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
spicyusername 5y ago
The experiences you describe are such a bummer. I've both witnessed similar situations and, as a man, unintentionally participated over the years while still growing up and maturing my professional "self". Keep seeing something and saying something with articles like these. The culture is changing, even if it doesn't feel like it some days, and talking about it in the open is part of what fuels that change.

59 points by ink_13 5y ago

If the goal is to have more women in tech, the messaging is wrong. If women in tech are "so angry all the time", that does not encourage a company to hire women, women to enter the field, or parents to encourage their daughters to consider a tech careers.

mthoms 5y ago
What "messaging"? The point the author is making is that the anger is wholly justified. Would it make you feel better if women pretended everything was okay? How on earth would that help young girls considering tech careers? Should young women entering the workforce also pretend everything is okay? When does it end? I'm going to assume you didn't mean it, but this comment came across to me as tone-deaf victim blaming. In fact, it sounds exactly like the kind of flippant and dismissive responses the author complained about. It's no wonder women in tech are angry.

proc0 5y ago

Just because men do a bad thing, doesn't mean every single man is responsible for that. Not to mention all men have mothers, and they play a huge part in how their children grow up to treat others. To solve a problem, the root cause must be found, and the root cause of harassment is NOT other men. Sure men could help, but articles like this seem to demand it, like they're yelling at men, as a group, for the actions of individuals. This doesn't make sense, and it doesn't help either.

ekager 5y ago
wow! love this groundbreaking take. "it's not men's fault, it's their mom's fault".
- mc32 5y ago
  Well, it may not be the fault of the bad actors' mothers but it's _also_ not the fault of the bad actors' other peers who happen to be men, unless the peers are bad too, (as well as the mothers if they happen to be bad too). We all know stereotyping is not the way to go.
- manicdee 5y ago
  Who socialises boys differently to girls? “Boys will be boys” “That is just his way of saying he likes you” etc It is a societal problem where the vast majority of people give boys a long leash for bad behaviour and then expect men to acquire good habits from somewhere on their own between childhood and adolescence. It is not men’s fault that they were socialised and habituated by people who tolerated or even encouraged poor behaviour.
bluefirebrand 5y ago
The assumption is that somehow every man is complicit. Like we all know about every bad thing that happens to women in our lives and workplace. Not only that, it assumes we have the power to fix things or make changes and we just choose not to. I don't know about other men but it absolutely alienates me from "the cause". I'm not having anything to do with people who start out by assuming I'm part of their problem.
- jm__87 5y ago
  I find articles like this annoying but this woman doesn't speak for all women in tech. Presumably some women can relate to her experiences, others can't. Some women will agree with her proposed solutions, others won't. Assuming the goal here is just to provide a workplace where women are treated fairly and not subject to harassment, I think that is a fair thing to ask for. I agree that as a man, it shouldn't be my job to police other men. If a woman comes to me and asks me for help with something, I will try to help her, but I'm not going to monitor interactions between my male and female colleagues for improper behavior.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    > I'm not going to monitor interactions between my male and female colleagues for improper behavior. That's cool. If I steal somebody's wallet at work, you've got my back?
    - jm__87 5y ago
      This isn't really a fair comparison. If someone is doing something blatantly and obviously illegal, then that is different. If I saw a male coworker punch a female coworker in the face, then obviously I am going to do something. I'm assuming the majority of workplace interactions that women have issue with are not blatantly and obviously illegal. Advances/flirting that is unwanted, crude jokes, condescension, etc. I have no idea if a woman is perceiving an interaction with a male colleague as one of these things without her telling me. I don't know what kind of relationship she has with this guy who is engaging in this behavior. I feel it would be premature of me to assume that every time I saw something that I think a woman would perceive as harassment that she is actually perceiving this as harassment AND that she needs my help to deal with it. Many women are perfectly capable of sticking up for themselves and don't want or need a "white knight" to rush in and help them.
neom 5y ago
Good article: Not all men - how discussing womens issues gets derailed: https://slate.com/technology/2014/05/not-all-men-how-discussing-womens-issues-gets-derailed.html https://slate.com/technology/2014/05/not-all-men-how-discuss...
mthoms 5y ago
>Just because men do a bad thing, doesn't mean every single man is responsible for that. Where in the heck did you get that from? The author made no such claim. Anywhere. I also didn't feel like the author was "yelling at men". I felt she was trying to get us to understand her frustration. Confident, respectful men don't get offended by posts like this. She's not talking about me (generally speaking that is - I know I'll never be perfect). But, I also know that I can help. I can be an ally. I don't mind being reminded of that. Sheesh, the early comments here tell me that the author could actually be understating the problem.
- ekager 5y ago
  appreciate you here mthoms
- proc0 5y ago
  The tone of the article is dealing in general terms. For example the closing part: > Next time you go to ask yourself why women in tech are so angry, ask yourself why you’re not angry with them. Is that for everyone? It sounds to be directed at the party that would not be angry, which is hyperbole for caring, and why would any women not care about this issue? Therefore this sounds like it's directed at men, at least implicitly. It's an angry article after all, why wouldn't it be pointing fingers. I'm just saying there's no one to blame but the individual culprits of those behaviors / actions.
  - mthoms 5y ago
    Change "women" to "black people" in the sentence you quoted and it's not at all controversial. That is to say — white people who aren't guilty of racism in their industry should still be angry about the racism that does exist in it. It's the same general principle.
    - proc0 5y ago
      i disagree, that is group-think and unfortunately the status quo right now is to encourage group-think. This is why someone who has nothing to do with something can be responsible for actions of someone else... because they are part of the same "group".
bitwize 5y ago
Women as a class are harassed and worse by men because men as a class allow it. They may not even be aware if it -- male privilege affords them that. Men have the moral obligation to get aware of it, and to take action to ensure that the male culture that allows it is ended. This requires cultivation of difficult skills such as shutting up, not mansplaining, and listening to women speaking their truth. And prioritizing the human rights of women over solidarity with their bros.
- jm__87 5y ago
  Do you believe you have power to change how other women behave towards men? Because I as a guy, have little to no power to change what other guys believe about women or how their beliefs affect their behavior towards women.
  - Volundr 5y ago
    As a guy, I pretty strongly disagree with this. I may not be able to change their beliefs, but by actively calling out their behavior, I can sure as heck change their behavior. When people know that saying something awful or treating someone poorly is going to make for a really awkward conversation at best, and possibly lead to being socially ostracized, they tend not to do those things.
    - jm__87 5y ago
      Maybe you are particularly persuasive, but the guys I have known who harassed women would not take anyone seriously if they were told they are being inappropriate. They may stop in that moment but will go right back to it the next day. Based on my own experiences, men who are fairly conscientious to begin with and listen when someone tells them they are being jerk are generally not the problem.
- proc0 5y ago
  So you're saying women need men's protection?
sealeck 5y ago
This ignores pretty much all evidence to the contrary – attempting to place ideology above realism.

bayofpigs 5y ago

When you're fat every negative slight is perceived to be caused by discrimination against your weight. This is the same but for 'females in tech.' Terrible things happen to everyone all the time. That's life. No reason to blame it on your particular flavor of victimhood.

ARandomerDude 5y ago

Here's the problem. Not one of these tips is "work hard and try be a the best at what you do." Instead, she leads with tips on how to be a proactive bridge-burner. Death threats, discrimination, etc. are obviously insane, but a lot of this frustration is self-induced. > Call out bad behavior you see or hear about, even when it’s uncomfortable. > Help to report offenders. > Give credit to and call out great work you see from the women you work with. > Offer to share your compensation packages to help your women-in-tech peers know their worth. > Advocate in your own teams for debiasing the interview/promotion process. > Advocate for events you're attending or organizing to include a more diverse set of voices and refer underrepresented experts you know for opportunities. > Don't rely on marginalized groups to educate you. > Listen to and believe women.

lochlainn 5y ago
This feels like a non-solution; implying that working harder solves mistreatment simply glosses over the work that women do, and could implicitly associate harassment with "poor performance".
mc32 5y ago
The issue here is it's asking women to be activists. Few companies want activists. Most companies want to achieve fairness and equal opportunity, but they also do not like agitators (because one can never have control over agitators, you never can know their next target, so to be safe, most companies tend to not want them around). It's the same conundrum with double agents. You agree with them helping your intelligence org, but you can never fully trust them. You cannot control their motivations (unless you hold their family hostage like they did in the USSR, etc.) From that standpoint, this is not good advice. Leadership is key. You have to schmooze leadership and convince them it's the right thing, but not via these activist methods.
- mthoms 5y ago
  Substitute race for gender and this argument totally falls apart. If you see a black colleague being treated unfairly and do nothing because you don't want to be seen as an "agitator" or "activist" then you are part of the problem. Full stop. The same goes for women.

readflaggedcomm 5y ago

>Next time you go to ask yourself why women in tech are so angry, ask yourself why you’re not angry with them. I'm not angry with you, I'm saddened. You've told them they've gotten to you deeply, and provided a blueprint on how to go further. Want to be angry? Keep feeding the trolls. Is that the plan? Why? Edit: I don't understand this response and silence. You all want this?

dabockster 5y ago
At some point you have to document it and take the risk. Otherwise, it keeps being a he-said-she-said game restricted to internal HR reports and nothing improves.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tootahe45 5y ago

Does anybody find it strange how there's never a single post by man in female dominated industry? Yet i see headlines about 'women in tech', almost every day. And please can we call it IT, not 'tech'. As a dev, 'tech' always sounded as though you were doing things much harder than IT.

ekager 5y ago
no
ink_13 5y ago
> Does anybody find it strange how there's never a single post by man in female dominated industry? I don't know what point you're trying to communicate here. Which female dominated industries do you regularly see discussed on Hacker News? > And please call it IT, not 'tech' Why should anyone do this? I have worked in tech for 20 years and refer to it as such.
klyrs 5y ago
Weird take on a news site focused on tech. Posts about other industries are often met with 'why is this here?' But anyway, is there a female-dominated industry that promises upward mobility that men are clamoring for acceptance in and failing to get it? And, speak for yourself, I only did IT when I was in high school and now I work in cutting edge technolgy.
- takoid 5y ago
  The cutting edge technology you work in wouldn’t happen to be information related, would it?
  - klyrs 5y ago
    All of matter is 'information related', until the heat death of the universe. What's the purpose of your question?
erik_seaberg 5y ago
Network admins and software developers have different goals, and pretty much every company bigger than three had us in different sections of the org chart. Calling it all “IT” will be misunderstood.

jessedhillon 5y ago

Edit: removed. I should take my own advice.

ekager 5y ago
Women discussing their personal experiences is "controversial"? And we "should expect" trolling and harassment and worse? That's exactly the problem. You think that that's normal and acceptable.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jessedhillon 5y ago
  For the record, I didn't say any of this. It's not controversial to talk about your experience. It's certainly controversial to generalize your experience across an entire industry, or sex. And it's not acceptable to be harassed, but yes it's normal and not specific to women.
  - ekager 5y ago
    So when ~50% of women working in tech have experienced harassment is that enough of a pattern to generalize? Or does it need to be 100% before we can talk about it? https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/40percent-of-women-in-tech-say-theyve-been-harassed-by-boss-or-investor.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/40percent-of-women-in-tech-s... Beyond that, harassment is not the only problem I talked about.
    - jessedhillon 5y ago
      I don't trust the results of anonymous online surveys, nor should you. It's amazing that any organization purporting to be journalistic would report such results, but those are the times we live in, I guess. Anyway, my comment was about base rates of harassment received by anyone saying anything critical of anyone else: they are high, no matter who you are and what you are saying. It's not right, but it's not limited to women.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bArray 5y ago

Every comment so far has been downvoted, I have some internet points to spend. > My first thought was someone had mailed me anthrax. That's your first thought? The harassment later described sounds insane - if you are receiving death threats call the police, open a case. It'll strengthen your position if you later need to go to court. What you don't do is post about it online, to let your attacker know they were successful. Also, don't doxx your own address. If you need to receive mail and post an address online, there are forwarding services - some even offer to search the mail. I somewhat find the claim incredible though - if you honestly believe you are in immediate danger, most people do something about it. > Most of us, however, experience constant microaggressions. The term 'microaggression' doesn't make sense to me, if it's aggression then call it out as such. If it's not meaningful enough to be called out, then you need a better coping mechanism. > [..] it truly feels like the cancerous misogynistic tumors in our industry in particular run so deep that we may never be able to bisect them all. Either Silicon Valley produces the worst work culture out there (and homelessness), or I would suggest that you find yourself in a bubble. I think as a general rule, if you believe <some group> to have almost entirely evil intent, then you don't understand them or have some internal bias. People generally don't try or believe themselves to be the villains of their own stories. > Listen to and believe women. You go from wanting equality to special treatment. I treat all people with scepticism, but they are innocent until proven guilty. That's how justice works. In general I feel sad for the author. Anything you try hard enough to find, you will eventually find. I hope instead of trying to find sexism in tech industry, the author tries to find happiness.

herschel666 5y ago
Looks like you're the prototype of the spoiled brat that populates the male part of the tech industry. You think when you're able to solve a technical problem, you're able to solve every problem. That's the common combination of arrogance & ignorance so many other dudes are sporting. It got boring long ago.
- bArray 5y ago
  > Looks like you're the prototype of the spoiled brat that populates the male part of the tech industry. If you claim it to be true, it must be. There's no possible way your world view could be wrong. > You think when you're able to solve a technical problem, you're able to solve every problem. Are there any other thoughts you can tell me I hold? There's no need for me to actually express an opinion given you already know how I think. > That's the common combination of arrogance & ignorance so many other dudes are sporting. Arrogance would perhaps be assuming you can determine who I am by hearing just one opinion I hold. As somebody once said: 'It got boring long ago.'

herschel666 5y ago

So now this post got flagged, because some men are even too weak to bear another person's opinion. slow clap

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

andreskytt 5y ago

I do apologize. People, including me, don’t go spend their lives talking to computers because they are great at talking to people. I’m bad at reading social context, probably on the autism spectrum and many of my colleagues over the last 30 years have been like me. There’s a high chance I’ve expressed what’s called a microagression in the post without intending to so. I can’t tell. I often can’t even tell I offended someone completely unintentionally. I’m a difficult person to be around, there many others like me. And I can’t get better although I have learned to keep myself away from people and be very careful about any interaction, I’m not remotely “normal”. So maybe it just helps talking to people? There appear to be many jerks around, sure. But I’m willing to bet many of these microagressions are simply a result of social ineptitude. If someone told me I stepped on their toes (some have), I can be more careful around them and assure them of no bad intentions.

st3fan 5y ago
Please read the following for more viewpoints on this topic https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Autism_is_to_blame https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Autism_is_to_blame I'd like to add that I am really disappointed that this "So maybe it just helps talking to people?" comment is at the top of the comments here. It is incredibly tone deaf and borderline victim blaming. It is such an easy explanation that many people here will accept. Yet it is a fallacy, out of touch with reality. Does anyone really think that the "on the spectum" workforce is the reason for the systemic issues in the tech industry?!
dabockster 5y ago
Diagnosed autistic person here. I do not use my medical condition as an excuse to create microagressions of any sort. In fact, I consider using autism as an "out" in this case to be selfish to both the person being offended as well as everyone out there with diagnosed autism. If you're able to go to work everyday and function in society without any extra assistance, then you do not get a pass to insult others needlessly. Go home and rethink your life.

skinkestek 5y ago

Let me start by saying that I've seen some really horrible and disgusting treatment of women compared to men. At one place. Out of 10. At least around here I also see that if two persons, one woman and one man, apply for the same position, and they are seen as exactly equally qualified, the woman gets hired first. Why? Because amount of women in the department is a KPI. I also see men walking circles around these issues, taking quite a lot more stupidity from a girl than from a man. I tried to wait a few weeks with one particular know-it-all that was a master in my field (or so she behaved) after 18 months of work. There are many brilliant women in tech, and then there is those that get paid as dev evangelist and get people booted from PyCon after listening in to someone elses conversation for something far less insulting then whatever she herself had posted publicly on Twitter short time before. I think the actual women in tech would do well to stand up to these who abuse it. And if you live in the Nordics at least and experience actual discrimination, look for a new job.

st3fan 5y ago
> At least around here I also see that if two persons, one woman and one man, apply for the same position, and they are seen as exactly equally qualified, the woman gets hired first. Why? Because amount of women in the department is a KPI. Explain why this is a problem? You say these two candidates are equally great. Should the man have been picked?
- skinkestek 5y ago
  No, absolutely not. I'm just pointing out that at least around here, and in the companies I want to work in, women has an advantage from before they are hired. I don't think this is necessarily true in USA and many other places. But together with the PyCon story and others where men are massively disadvantaged while everyone pretend it is always easy for all men it might explain a bit of the feelings you sometimes see.
  - st3fan 5y ago
    It is interesting that you say "men are massively disadvantaged". Because as a hiring manager I can tell you that my experience is that usually for engineering positions, 99 out of 100 applicants are ... men ...

zozbot234 5y ago

This "women are so angry" stuff is just a damaging, sexist stereotype. Men are far more aggressive than women, and nobody's calling them "angry" as a result. What an awful, clickbait article.

ekager 5y ago
Did you actually read the article?
- klyrs 5y ago
  Vouched, despite this generally being against the guidelines, because this isn't actually a question. GP wouldn't be so dismissive if they'd read the article. Many women in tech, myself and the author included, are angry, because of how we're treated. The fact that this plays into a stereotype that's used as a dismissal is a problem we need to talk about. Related issue: abuse victims are less productive at work, because of the abuse. Trump said the quiet part loud: "He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren't captured." That's subtext behind every claim of a "pipeline problem."
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

spicyusername 5y ago

The experiences you describe are such a bummer. I've both witnessed similar situations and, as a man, unintentionally participated over the years while still growing up and maturing my professional "self". Keep seeing something and saying something with articles like these. The culture is changing, even if it doesn't feel like it some days, and talking about it in the open is part of what fuels that change.