3 ms·

> Sure, having the one black or gay character in a tv show is obvious tokenism, particularly when portrayed as shallow stereotype, but it seems to me as if any

by slibhb 5y ago

> Sure, having the one black or gay character in a tv show is obvious tokenism, particularly when portrayed as shallow stereotype, but it seems to me as if any attempt at representation nowadays is written off as "political" or tokenism, even when it's sincere. This is the crux of the issue. To me, "attempts at representation" are demeaning by definition. Giving someone a part because of their skin color or sex or sexual orientation is demeaning. Diversity has to be genuine for it to be good. You have to cast an actor or write a part because you thought the actor was good or the part works, not as part of an "attempt at representation".

watwut 5y ago
Yeah, if all characters are white guys, we know it is because of them being all super awesome. Mediocre white guy characters are everywhere and where everywhere. Why is it such an insult to be those roles filled by others?
- slibhb 5y ago
  You and two other posters interpreted my comment this way. But it's not at all what I said or meant. I'm not complaining about "too many non white gay people in movies". I'm complaining about bad movies that I judge to be bad because of the po-faced pursuit of diversity rather than an attempt to make something beautiful, meaningful, strange, funny, or some other quality associated with good movies.
krapp 5y ago
>To me, "attempts at representation" are demeaning by definition. Giving someone a part because of their skin color or sex or sexual orientation is demeaning. Aren't you moving the goalposts? I thought we were talking about characters, not actors. Two entirely different arguments, and I know a lot of LGBTQ+ people who would be offended at a straight person playing gay or transgender, and a lot of POC people who take issue with "whitewashing" in Hollywood. But the people who complain about the "agenda" behind non-straight, non-white characters don't tend to complain when non-white roles get cast by white actors. Do you consider writing non-white, non-straight characters to be demeaning by definition? Is a Muslim, Pakistani-American Ms. Marvel demeaning to Muslims and Pakistanis? In a field where Muslims and Middle-Easterners are rarely portrayed in a positive light, if at all? Even if Kamala Khan is written by a Pakistani Muslim, and based partly on her own lived experiences? Is adding the possibility of gay romance or sex in a video game demeaning to gay people? If so, why isn't straight sex in a video game isn't demeaning to straight people? >You have to cast an actor or write a part because you thought the actor was good or the part works, not as part of an "attempt at representation". And what I'm saying is that's exactly what happens more often than you and many people seem willing to believe. It's just assumed that every non-white, non-straight character or role exists only for the sake of "diversity points."
Enginerrrd 5y ago
I agree. There's also the issue that typically the token minorities really seem to be sanitized of their actual culture too. They're white characters played by minority actors. And as a result, it feels patronizing to the viewer and the minorities.
- krapp 5y ago
  >There's also the issue that typically the token minorities really seem to be sanitized of their actual culture too. Not every minority in real life acts like a sterotypical minority. The idea that, say, Black characters should only be allowed to "act Black" would really be tokenism.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
kelnos 5y ago
> Giving someone a part because of their skin color or sex or sexual orientation is demeaning. I really hope you're not suggesting that the reason why nowadays casts aren't solely composed of straight, cis, white people is because all of the unqualified other actors are being given jobs they don't deserve. Maybe "attempt at representation" can also mean producers, writers, casting directors, etc. just finally realizing that the world is full of more than just white people, and maybe stories should be written that include those people too. It doesn't have to be some awkward forced diversity where it doesn't make sense. > Diversity has to be genuine for it to be good. Sure, and yet I just see a lot of hand waving about all this rampant non-genuine diversity without any evidence that this is widespread. Certainly that sort of thing exists: of course we've all cringed at a character or casting decision that was clearly made for the wrong reasons. But I just don't think I see that happening that often these days. Maybe broaden the types of TV shows and movies you watch to stuff that isn't targeted squarely at straight, cis, white people?
- slibhb 5y ago
  > I really hope you're not suggesting that the reason why nowadays casts aren't solely composed of straight, cis, white people is because all of the unqualified other actors are being given jobs they don't deserve. I can't parse this, sorry. Too many negatives. > Maybe "attempt at representation" can also mean producers, writers, casting directors, etc. just finally realizing that the world is full of more than just white people, and maybe stories should be written that include those people too. It doesn't have to be some awkward forced diversity where it doesn't make sense. This is exactly the issue. Good art does not come from earnest people "trying to tell important stories about more than just white people". > Sure, and yet I just see a lot of hand waving about all this rampant non-genuine diversity without any evidence that this is widespread. Certainly that sort of thing exists: of course we've all cringed at a character or casting decision that was clearly made for the wrong reasons. But I just don't think I see that happening that often these days. Maybe broaden the types of TV shows and movies you watch to stuff that isn't targeted squarely at straight, cis, white people? I'm unsure how I could provide "evidence" of a movie being "non-genuine". Do I need to explain how I calibrate my Genuineness-index? Should I show my work? We're talking about movies. If I watch something and can't get into it because I judge it to be "non-genuine," I'm allowed to say so without offering evidence and, of course, you're allowed to disagree. It's too funny to be accused of watching "stuff that is targeted squarely at straight, cis, white people". 90% of the movies I watch are foreign movies, low budget/arty American movies, or classics. You're assuming I'm a bigot when, in reality, I'm making a very basic point about where art comes from (not from people trying to "pursue equity, diversity, and inclusivity").

by slibhb 5y ago

watwut 5y ago

Yeah, if all characters are white guys, we know it is because of them being all super awesome. Mediocre white guy characters are everywhere and where everywhere. Why is it such an insult to be those roles filled by others?

slibhb 5y ago
You and two other posters interpreted my comment this way. But it's not at all what I said or meant. I'm not complaining about "too many non white gay people in movies". I'm complaining about bad movies that I judge to be bad because of the po-faced pursuit of diversity rather than an attempt to make something beautiful, meaningful, strange, funny, or some other quality associated with good movies.

krapp 5y ago

>To me, "attempts at representation" are demeaning by definition. Giving someone a part because of their skin color or sex or sexual orientation is demeaning. Aren't you moving the goalposts? I thought we were talking about characters, not actors. Two entirely different arguments, and I know a lot of LGBTQ+ people who would be offended at a straight person playing gay or transgender, and a lot of POC people who take issue with "whitewashing" in Hollywood. But the people who complain about the "agenda" behind non-straight, non-white characters don't tend to complain when non-white roles get cast by white actors. Do you consider writing non-white, non-straight characters to be demeaning by definition? Is a Muslim, Pakistani-American Ms. Marvel demeaning to Muslims and Pakistanis? In a field where Muslims and Middle-Easterners are rarely portrayed in a positive light, if at all? Even if Kamala Khan is written by a Pakistani Muslim, and based partly on her own lived experiences? Is adding the possibility of gay romance or sex in a video game demeaning to gay people? If so, why isn't straight sex in a video game isn't demeaning to straight people? >You have to cast an actor or write a part because you thought the actor was good or the part works, not as part of an "attempt at representation". And what I'm saying is that's exactly what happens more often than you and many people seem willing to believe. It's just assumed that every non-white, non-straight character or role exists only for the sake of "diversity points."

Enginerrrd 5y ago

I agree. There's also the issue that typically the token minorities really seem to be sanitized of their actual culture too. They're white characters played by minority actors. And as a result, it feels patronizing to the viewer and the minorities.

krapp 5y ago
>There's also the issue that typically the token minorities really seem to be sanitized of their actual culture too. Not every minority in real life acts like a sterotypical minority. The idea that, say, Black characters should only be allowed to "act Black" would really be tokenism.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

kelnos 5y ago

> Giving someone a part because of their skin color or sex or sexual orientation is demeaning. I really hope you're not suggesting that the reason why nowadays casts aren't solely composed of straight, cis, white people is because all of the unqualified other actors are being given jobs they don't deserve. Maybe "attempt at representation" can also mean producers, writers, casting directors, etc. just finally realizing that the world is full of more than just white people, and maybe stories should be written that include those people too. It doesn't have to be some awkward forced diversity where it doesn't make sense. > Diversity has to be genuine for it to be good. Sure, and yet I just see a lot of hand waving about all this rampant non-genuine diversity without any evidence that this is widespread. Certainly that sort of thing exists: of course we've all cringed at a character or casting decision that was clearly made for the wrong reasons. But I just don't think I see that happening that often these days. Maybe broaden the types of TV shows and movies you watch to stuff that isn't targeted squarely at straight, cis, white people?

slibhb 5y ago
> I really hope you're not suggesting that the reason why nowadays casts aren't solely composed of straight, cis, white people is because all of the unqualified other actors are being given jobs they don't deserve. I can't parse this, sorry. Too many negatives. > Maybe "attempt at representation" can also mean producers, writers, casting directors, etc. just finally realizing that the world is full of more than just white people, and maybe stories should be written that include those people too. It doesn't have to be some awkward forced diversity where it doesn't make sense. This is exactly the issue. Good art does not come from earnest people "trying to tell important stories about more than just white people". > Sure, and yet I just see a lot of hand waving about all this rampant non-genuine diversity without any evidence that this is widespread. Certainly that sort of thing exists: of course we've all cringed at a character or casting decision that was clearly made for the wrong reasons. But I just don't think I see that happening that often these days. Maybe broaden the types of TV shows and movies you watch to stuff that isn't targeted squarely at straight, cis, white people? I'm unsure how I could provide "evidence" of a movie being "non-genuine". Do I need to explain how I calibrate my Genuineness-index? Should I show my work? We're talking about movies. If I watch something and can't get into it because I judge it to be "non-genuine," I'm allowed to say so without offering evidence and, of course, you're allowed to disagree. It's too funny to be accused of watching "stuff that is targeted squarely at straight, cis, white people". 90% of the movies I watch are foreign movies, low budget/arty American movies, or classics. You're assuming I'm a bigot when, in reality, I'm making a very basic point about where art comes from (not from people trying to "pursue equity, diversity, and inclusivity").