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> I trust it because it’s an open source project and I can see what goes in and comes out. That is just the browser part. The code on their servers that actual

> I trust it because it’s an open source project and I can see what goes in and comes out. That is just the browser part. The code on their servers that actually processes the data the browser collected is closed-source. In general, browser being open or closed source has no correlation with how privacy respecting it is. Chrom{e|ium} and Edge are another examples. Pragmatically speaking there is only one thing that guarantees privacy and that is browser being zero-telemetry, regardless of if it is open source or not.

xtat 5y ago
What server-side components are you referring to here? From my memory there was very little interesting private code, and I can't think of anything that would process user data that would be private.
prepend 5y ago
To my understanding there is no data sent from my Brave client to any Brave servers. So my data are not stored or used by Brave servers, so I don’t care too much about their source. Of course, there’s nothing magical about open source that makes it more privacy respecting. It’s just that open source let’s me know what my browser is doing. For example, Chrome is reporting everything I do to Google. It’s possible to know that by looking at the code for Chrome. Brave doesn’t do this and it’s possible to know that by looking at the code for Brave.
- freediver 5y ago
  > To my understanding there is no data sent from my Brave client to any Brave servers. That would be wrong. By Brave's own confession, there are 70 requests it sends "home" on startup [1]. Regardless of request payload, each of them contains your PII (IP address at the very least). There is plenty of opportunity for your data to be stored and used (not saying that it is). If and how is that data actually used, we do not know, because this part is closed-source. When companies that are running advertising-based business models like Brave and Google are in question, this is the most important part users should be concerned with. Only way to settle this would be if the browser actually sent no requests anywhere, like you initially believed to be true. Indeed, a web browser has no business making requests anywhere without my explicit approval! > It’s possible to know that by looking at the code for Chrome. Brave doesn’t do this and it’s possible to know that by looking at the code for Brave. Do not want to be harsh but I assume you didn't actually look into the Brave's source code. You could have, but in reality very few actually do. Open-source "tag" on software can give this false sense of security because you rely on someone else to do the hard work and actually look through millions of lines of code. The only way to actually trust a browser from a privacy standpoint is to check if it is indeed not transmitting any data. Instead of relying on source code, a much easier and foolproof way to check this is to use a network proxy, many are commonly available for all platforms. Then you can believe your own eyes vs marketing. Disclaimer: I am in the business of creating a privacy respecting, zero-telemetry, browser. This topic is near and dear to my heart. More on this here [2] and here [3] [1] https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/ https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/ [2] https://browser.kagi.com/faq.html#ossprivacy https://browser.kagi.com/faq.html#ossprivacy [3] https://browser.kagi.com/faq.html#privacy https://browser.kagi.com/faq.html#privacy
  - prepend 5y ago
    > Do not want to be harsh but I assume you didn't actually look into the Brave's source code. This is a weird assumption to make on HN. I have. I also didn’t say that viewing source code is the only part of understanding a browser’s security. It’s a useful portion. Network monitors are also good. I’m not talking about startup telemetry, I mean browsing history and activity. Chrome reports this, Brave doesn’t. I don’t think Brave is perfect, I just think it’s better than Chrome and Firefox.
    - freediver 5y ago
      Point taken. Since someone from Brave jumped in, I gave my (long) opinion on the topic as a reply to their comment.
  - jonathansampson 5y ago
    > By Brave's own confession, there are 70 requests it sends "home" on startup… "Confession" is a curious choice of words. You're correct that Brave issues requests on startup; this is necessary for a secure application. If your browser isn't updating its internal list of suspected-malicious domains and more, it isn't doing "security" properly. > There is plenty of opportunity for your data to be stored and used (not saying that it is). To what "data" are you referring? You cited my review of our (Brave) network activity, and that of many other browsers; which data/requests do you find to be worrisome? A similar review was conducted in 2020 by Trinity College Dublin, which also found Brave to be the "most private" browser tested (even with these startup requests): https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/browser_privacy.pdf https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/browser_privacy.pdf. > …each of them [network requests] contains your PII (IP address at the very least). An IP address is rather unavoidable. But whether or not an IP address constitutes PII is debatable—many users can (and do) share common IP addresses. That said, we drop the IP address when and where possible. For example, usage requests are routed through a CDN which replaces the user's IP address with their inferred country. Brave has no interest in trying to remotely monitor anybody's browsing habits; if we did, you (and/or those who actively monitor our project, looking for faults) would see clear signals in our network activity. Instead, everything we do is designed from the outset to preclude this type of abuse. That's the case with our Privacy-Preserving Product Analytics (https://brave.com/p3a https://brave.com/p3a), our Private CDN (https://brave.com/brave-private-cdn/ https://brave.com/brave-private-cdn/), and more. Brave isn't interested in your personal information; we have built a business model that doesn't rely on the harvesting of user data. > The only way to actually trust a browser from a privacy standpoint is to check if it is indeed not transmitting any data. This is a great point. Please review our network requests, and let me know which items give you concern. We're genuinely interested in your feedback. > Disclaimer: I am in the business of creating a privacy respecting, zero-telemetry, browser. This topic is near and dear to my heart. I'm curious how your product handles security; do you not maintain a client-side list of suspected-malicious domains (so that you can warn a user who might be stumbling into something harmful), or check for updates to patch zero-day vulnerabilities in the wild, etc.? Both of these (and more) require routine network requests if they are to offer any effective defense for the user.

xtat 5y ago

What server-side components are you referring to here? From my memory there was very little interesting private code, and I can't think of anything that would process user data that would be private.

prepend 5y ago

To my understanding there is no data sent from my Brave client to any Brave servers. So my data are not stored or used by Brave servers, so I don’t care too much about their source. Of course, there’s nothing magical about open source that makes it more privacy respecting. It’s just that open source let’s me know what my browser is doing. For example, Chrome is reporting everything I do to Google. It’s possible to know that by looking at the code for Chrome. Brave doesn’t do this and it’s possible to know that by looking at the code for Brave.

freediver 5y ago
> To my understanding there is no data sent from my Brave client to any Brave servers. That would be wrong. By Brave's own confession, there are 70 requests it sends "home" on startup [1]. Regardless of request payload, each of them contains your PII (IP address at the very least). There is plenty of opportunity for your data to be stored and used (not saying that it is). If and how is that data actually used, we do not know, because this part is closed-source. When companies that are running advertising-based business models like Brave and Google are in question, this is the most important part users should be concerned with. Only way to settle this would be if the browser actually sent no requests anywhere, like you initially believed to be true. Indeed, a web browser has no business making requests anywhere without my explicit approval! > It’s possible to know that by looking at the code for Chrome. Brave doesn’t do this and it’s possible to know that by looking at the code for Brave. Do not want to be harsh but I assume you didn't actually look into the Brave's source code. You could have, but in reality very few actually do. Open-source "tag" on software can give this false sense of security because you rely on someone else to do the hard work and actually look through millions of lines of code. The only way to actually trust a browser from a privacy standpoint is to check if it is indeed not transmitting any data. Instead of relying on source code, a much easier and foolproof way to check this is to use a network proxy, many are commonly available for all platforms. Then you can believe your own eyes vs marketing. Disclaimer: I am in the business of creating a privacy respecting, zero-telemetry, browser. This topic is near and dear to my heart. More on this here [2] and here [3] [1] https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/ https://brave.com/popular-browsers-first-run/ [2] https://browser.kagi.com/faq.html#ossprivacy https://browser.kagi.com/faq.html#ossprivacy [3] https://browser.kagi.com/faq.html#privacy https://browser.kagi.com/faq.html#privacy
- prepend 5y ago
  > Do not want to be harsh but I assume you didn't actually look into the Brave's source code. This is a weird assumption to make on HN. I have. I also didn’t say that viewing source code is the only part of understanding a browser’s security. It’s a useful portion. Network monitors are also good. I’m not talking about startup telemetry, I mean browsing history and activity. Chrome reports this, Brave doesn’t. I don’t think Brave is perfect, I just think it’s better than Chrome and Firefox.
  - freediver 5y ago
    Point taken. Since someone from Brave jumped in, I gave my (long) opinion on the topic as a reply to their comment.
- jonathansampson 5y ago
  > By Brave's own confession, there are 70 requests it sends "home" on startup… "Confession" is a curious choice of words. You're correct that Brave issues requests on startup; this is necessary for a secure application. If your browser isn't updating its internal list of suspected-malicious domains and more, it isn't doing "security" properly. > There is plenty of opportunity for your data to be stored and used (not saying that it is). To what "data" are you referring? You cited my review of our (Brave) network activity, and that of many other browsers; which data/requests do you find to be worrisome? A similar review was conducted in 2020 by Trinity College Dublin, which also found Brave to be the "most private" browser tested (even with these startup requests): https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/browser_privacy.pdf https://www.scss.tcd.ie/Doug.Leith/pubs/browser_privacy.pdf. > …each of them [network requests] contains your PII (IP address at the very least). An IP address is rather unavoidable. But whether or not an IP address constitutes PII is debatable—many users can (and do) share common IP addresses. That said, we drop the IP address when and where possible. For example, usage requests are routed through a CDN which replaces the user's IP address with their inferred country. Brave has no interest in trying to remotely monitor anybody's browsing habits; if we did, you (and/or those who actively monitor our project, looking for faults) would see clear signals in our network activity. Instead, everything we do is designed from the outset to preclude this type of abuse. That's the case with our Privacy-Preserving Product Analytics (https://brave.com/p3a https://brave.com/p3a), our Private CDN (https://brave.com/brave-private-cdn/ https://brave.com/brave-private-cdn/), and more. Brave isn't interested in your personal information; we have built a business model that doesn't rely on the harvesting of user data. > The only way to actually trust a browser from a privacy standpoint is to check if it is indeed not transmitting any data. This is a great point. Please review our network requests, and let me know which items give you concern. We're genuinely interested in your feedback. > Disclaimer: I am in the business of creating a privacy respecting, zero-telemetry, browser. This topic is near and dear to my heart. I'm curious how your product handles security; do you not maintain a client-side list of suspected-malicious domains (so that you can warn a user who might be stumbling into something harmful), or check for updates to patch zero-day vulnerabilities in the wild, etc.? Both of these (and more) require routine network requests if they are to offer any effective defense for the user.