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"They're less open to new ideas, and more extroverted and driven by self-interests." This is something like Karl Marx describing capitalism and entrepreneurs. I

"They're less open to new ideas, and more extroverted and driven by self-interests." This is something like Karl Marx describing capitalism and entrepreneurs. It's wrong. I'm against mandatory vaccination and I am open to new ideas, I'm introvert and I'm not driven by self-interests in fact I'm driven by interests of all stakeholders. So the article's statement is completely wrong. Edit: Endless lockdowns are more devastating for poor and lower class people. Middle class and rich people will always find their way around. Funny enough while ago when I watched a documentary about Italian Mafia researchers said that even criminals understand that so called FUD (Fear, uncertainty, and doubt) is only hurting their business because society can't function like that and they decided to end endless wars, conflicts and violence in order to minimize civil unrest and make people feel happy and safe again.

aaron-santos 5y ago
Honest question, do you think you're about average in the population of those who are against mandatory vaccination?
- mrkramer 5y ago
  Probably I'm not but all the people that I know who are not willing to vaccinate do not fear COVID and all the people that I know who are vaccinated fear COVID. I think just like UK government said it is your personal responsibility to protect yourself, your family and your friends, government is here after all to step in and help you with health care and legal protection and assistance if necessary.
  - aaron-santos 5y ago
    Thanks for responding. It's helpful to understand exactly the argument some people are making. Would it be fair to characterize your rebuttal as "Because I'm a counter example, the article's conclusions are wrong"?
    - mrkramer 5y ago
      No I meant because I'm a counter example my point of view is that article's conclusions are wrong that's just my opinion. I think they are using stereotypes in order to mark some people as Covid non-compliers. I'm not a psychiatrist or a scientist therefore I'm not qualified to review and assert this article(paper) which is referring to scientific research study in psychology.
      - aaron-santos 5y ago
        This could be a good opportunity to dig into what statistical reasoning is and how it works. Having additional ways to examine and critique arguments is a powerful tool.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    > robably I'm not but all the people that I know who are not willing to vaccinate do not fear COVID and all the people that I know who are vaccinated fear COVID. I suppose this is a post-facto rationalisation. If I fear the vaccine more, I would rationalise my decision to avoid it by mentally diminishing the risks of COVID.
    - mrkramer 5y ago
      Anti-vaccination movement is decades old it has nothing to do with COVID particularity while I do not consider myself "Anti-vaxxer" I think that it is not necessary to take every vaccine that is recommended to you. I meant to say in my earlier post that people who are fearless approach problems in life with ease and calm but people who fear are bounded by their fear and they start thinking irrational or in another words they are driven by fear not by solidarity or patriotism. That's why I said fearless people do not vaccinate and people in fear vaccinate. It all comes down to death rate of this pandemic being 0.1% which is not extremely high and if there is a vaccine people with underlying conditions and people with impaired immune system should probably take vaccine and everybody else are free to decide whether or not they are going to take it.
    - patrick451 5y ago
      It's a nice sounding etiology. I can only speak for myself, but I've not been afraid of covid since day. This non-fear did not magically arise seven months ago because I don't want the vaccine.
Barrin92 5y ago
The article's statement is completely wrong because you, in your own self-perception, deviate from a demographic observation? Honestly your post gives me the impression the article is right. Also as a side-note, while Marx diagnosis of capitalism is controversial, a lot of Communists were actual admirers of entrepreneurs, Stalin used to describe the essence of Leninism as "the combination of the Russian revolutionary sweep with American efficiency"
- mrkramer 5y ago
  And how is "American efficiency" achieved? Through free market economy and entrepreneurship. Soviet Union had neither of those; they had corporations owned by state and forced collectivization of agricultural goods. 5 year plan was modus operandi of Soviet Union not market forces or as Adam Smith would say "invisible hand".
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    free markets arguably play a relatively minor role. What the Soviets were after, and what many Americans actually directly provided was scientific management and scaling operations to industrial size. Taylorism enjoyed particular popularity in the Soviet Union, and one of Taylor's chief disciples, Hugh Lincoln Cooper, was actually directly hired by the Soviet Union together with numerous American engineers and workers and General Electric to build the, at the time, largest Hydroelectric power station in the world in the Soviet Union[1]. This kind of expertise is what the Soviets were after and it is also what has made the US successful. The free market is overrated and you can see it if you go to any underdeveloped country. There's free-markets galore, some of the poorest countries on earth have nothing but free-markets. American efficiency is the result of producing firms that can organize themselves and implement huge projects at scale effectively. No markets within a firm and usually they're not very free either. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper_Hydroelectric_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper_Hydroelectric_Station
    - mrkramer 5y ago
      I was speaking about Economy of the Soviet Union not about particular industrial projects or particular state firms. Free market forces are supply and demand coupled with private ownership and private entrepreneurship.

aaron-santos 5y ago

Honest question, do you think you're about average in the population of those who are against mandatory vaccination?

mrkramer 5y ago
Probably I'm not but all the people that I know who are not willing to vaccinate do not fear COVID and all the people that I know who are vaccinated fear COVID. I think just like UK government said it is your personal responsibility to protect yourself, your family and your friends, government is here after all to step in and help you with health care and legal protection and assistance if necessary.
- aaron-santos 5y ago
  Thanks for responding. It's helpful to understand exactly the argument some people are making. Would it be fair to characterize your rebuttal as "Because I'm a counter example, the article's conclusions are wrong"?
  - mrkramer 5y ago
    No I meant because I'm a counter example my point of view is that article's conclusions are wrong that's just my opinion. I think they are using stereotypes in order to mark some people as Covid non-compliers. I'm not a psychiatrist or a scientist therefore I'm not qualified to review and assert this article(paper) which is referring to scientific research study in psychology.
    - aaron-santos 5y ago
      This could be a good opportunity to dig into what statistical reasoning is and how it works. Having additional ways to examine and critique arguments is a powerful tool.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  > robably I'm not but all the people that I know who are not willing to vaccinate do not fear COVID and all the people that I know who are vaccinated fear COVID. I suppose this is a post-facto rationalisation. If I fear the vaccine more, I would rationalise my decision to avoid it by mentally diminishing the risks of COVID.
  - mrkramer 5y ago
    Anti-vaccination movement is decades old it has nothing to do with COVID particularity while I do not consider myself "Anti-vaxxer" I think that it is not necessary to take every vaccine that is recommended to you. I meant to say in my earlier post that people who are fearless approach problems in life with ease and calm but people who fear are bounded by their fear and they start thinking irrational or in another words they are driven by fear not by solidarity or patriotism. That's why I said fearless people do not vaccinate and people in fear vaccinate. It all comes down to death rate of this pandemic being 0.1% which is not extremely high and if there is a vaccine people with underlying conditions and people with impaired immune system should probably take vaccine and everybody else are free to decide whether or not they are going to take it.
  - patrick451 5y ago
    It's a nice sounding etiology. I can only speak for myself, but I've not been afraid of covid since day. This non-fear did not magically arise seven months ago because I don't want the vaccine.

Barrin92 5y ago

The article's statement is completely wrong because you, in your own self-perception, deviate from a demographic observation? Honestly your post gives me the impression the article is right. Also as a side-note, while Marx diagnosis of capitalism is controversial, a lot of Communists were actual admirers of entrepreneurs, Stalin used to describe the essence of Leninism as "the combination of the Russian revolutionary sweep with American efficiency"

mrkramer 5y ago
And how is "American efficiency" achieved? Through free market economy and entrepreneurship. Soviet Union had neither of those; they had corporations owned by state and forced collectivization of agricultural goods. 5 year plan was modus operandi of Soviet Union not market forces or as Adam Smith would say "invisible hand".
- Barrin92 5y ago
  free markets arguably play a relatively minor role. What the Soviets were after, and what many Americans actually directly provided was scientific management and scaling operations to industrial size. Taylorism enjoyed particular popularity in the Soviet Union, and one of Taylor's chief disciples, Hugh Lincoln Cooper, was actually directly hired by the Soviet Union together with numerous American engineers and workers and General Electric to build the, at the time, largest Hydroelectric power station in the world in the Soviet Union[1]. This kind of expertise is what the Soviets were after and it is also what has made the US successful. The free market is overrated and you can see it if you go to any underdeveloped country. There's free-markets galore, some of the poorest countries on earth have nothing but free-markets. American efficiency is the result of producing firms that can organize themselves and implement huge projects at scale effectively. No markets within a firm and usually they're not very free either. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper_Hydroelectric_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper_Hydroelectric_Station
  - mrkramer 5y ago
    I was speaking about Economy of the Soviet Union not about particular industrial projects or particular state firms. Free market forces are supply and demand coupled with private ownership and private entrepreneurship.