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Homicides and crime overall are at almost historic lows globally, for various reasons (see this entire thread). To prove that gun culture and ownership doesn’t

by jljljl 5y ago

Homicides and crime overall are at almost historic lows globally, for various reasons (see this entire thread). To prove that gun culture and ownership doesn’t lead to crime, you’d need to show more than the data linked, such as a comparison between countries with strong vs. weak “gun culture” or high vs low gun ownership

SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
And control for literally everything else in the world. Unless you want to cherry pick for “effect”. So instead of the impossible, let’s look at the only the USA’s historic gun violence in the 90s. We add more guns than there has ever been, 40% of all the guns in the world in the USA, crime goes down - we can’t say adding guns was the reason for a crime drop - but we can say it appears adding more guns did not cause more crime. Unless you have reason to believe crime would have dropped even more in an alternate universe where a magic wand was waved to remove the hundreds of millions of guns in the USA. But, a statement like that should come with evidence.
- jljljl 5y ago
  1. The number of households that own a gun has actually declined, according to surveys (US law prohibits collection of gun ownership data). We may have added guns, but the number of people + gun availability seem to be declining. If we look at just historic numbers like you say, I would argue that reduced availability of firearms _does_ seem to reduce crime. 2. Despite this decline, the US has a higher rate of gun ownership and availability than other high-income countries, and this correlates with one of the highest rates of homicide amongst those countries. So my naive read of the data would be that an even lower availability of firearms would lead to an even lower homicide rate.
  - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
    You clearly don’t understand this topic from the inside so allow me to explain the common trap you are caught in. You just pointed to bullshit. Not your fault, someone wanted you to think that. But I can promise no one even remotely associated to guns believes this. No. The number of firearm owning households has not decreased. That’s propaganda and you just don’t know any better. I’ve seen it as a competitor and a trainer, new gun owners are making up these records - not as Michael Bloomberg (the single biggest source of gun control money in the world) would have you think. The number of concealed carry permits are at record numbers. The number of training outfits has never been higher. The numbers of protestors for 2A civil rights has never been higher. The only place you’ll see otherwise are antigun outfits with extremely questionable methodology. The question you should be asking is why do you have your sources lying to you and what else have they lied about? So right off, you use a lie that is sold to you as comfort food. “Dont worry, it’s just the same few horders trading guns to each other, they aren’t a majority, you are”. Then you use that to make a completely evidencless assumption that less guns equals less crime - when we only have correlation of the opposite. So… while I really don’t like to apples and oranges… In 1997, Australia banned most all good defensive firearms. They also nearly doubled police per capita. Crime fell! But… in the USA crime fell by a greater amount over the same time period with no ban and only more guns added. So again; there is absolutely zero proof that less guns equals less crime, especially when faced that more guns hasn’t made more crime. > So my naive read Indeed. But the worse part is you don’t want the truth. You are looking for the lie. And going far to find it, why is that?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
skinkestek 5y ago
If you are actually interested you can do worse than to look at crime rates vs gun ownership in the Nordic countries, Switzerland, Austria and the Czeck Republic. Clearly something else than gun ownership / distribution has a massive influence. I mention ownership / distribution separately above since several of these countries have had fully equipped actual assault rifles like G3 etc (not crippled AR-15s) and ammunition stored in private homes for decades kn addition to huge amounts of hunting rifles, pistols, shotguns and unlicensed guns. A few suicides a year that's mostly it and removing the guns doesn't seem to work: I haven't heard about a massive drop on suicides since the Norwegians decided to store vital parts of the rifles in local depots.
- jljljl 5y ago
  The United States has 4x the number of guns per capita than any of the countries you've listed. Just taking Norway, the rate of handgun ownership is also significantly higher in the US. It could be the case that below a certain threshold, further reducing firearm availability does little to affect crime, but the US is probably far from that level
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    I'd rather say that above a certain level it doesn't matter and all these countries are above it. So it is not about gun ownership but about gun culture abd culture generally.
    - jljljl 5y ago
      I would suggest that ownership and “gun culture” are closely related. A gun culture like Norway’s, where there are greater restrictions on registration and purchase of firearms, would probably lead to a reduction in firearms if applied to the US.
      - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
        Schemes to prevent gun ownership, reduce gun ownership. Shocker.

by jljljl 5y ago

SV_BubbleTime 5y ago

And control for literally everything else in the world. Unless you want to cherry pick for “effect”. So instead of the impossible, let’s look at the only the USA’s historic gun violence in the 90s. We add more guns than there has ever been, 40% of all the guns in the world in the USA, crime goes down - we can’t say adding guns was the reason for a crime drop - but we can say it appears adding more guns did not cause more crime. Unless you have reason to believe crime would have dropped even more in an alternate universe where a magic wand was waved to remove the hundreds of millions of guns in the USA. But, a statement like that should come with evidence.

jljljl 5y ago
1. The number of households that own a gun has actually declined, according to surveys (US law prohibits collection of gun ownership data). We may have added guns, but the number of people + gun availability seem to be declining. If we look at just historic numbers like you say, I would argue that reduced availability of firearms _does_ seem to reduce crime. 2. Despite this decline, the US has a higher rate of gun ownership and availability than other high-income countries, and this correlates with one of the highest rates of homicide amongst those countries. So my naive read of the data would be that an even lower availability of firearms would lead to an even lower homicide rate.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
  You clearly don’t understand this topic from the inside so allow me to explain the common trap you are caught in. You just pointed to bullshit. Not your fault, someone wanted you to think that. But I can promise no one even remotely associated to guns believes this. No. The number of firearm owning households has not decreased. That’s propaganda and you just don’t know any better. I’ve seen it as a competitor and a trainer, new gun owners are making up these records - not as Michael Bloomberg (the single biggest source of gun control money in the world) would have you think. The number of concealed carry permits are at record numbers. The number of training outfits has never been higher. The numbers of protestors for 2A civil rights has never been higher. The only place you’ll see otherwise are antigun outfits with extremely questionable methodology. The question you should be asking is why do you have your sources lying to you and what else have they lied about? So right off, you use a lie that is sold to you as comfort food. “Dont worry, it’s just the same few horders trading guns to each other, they aren’t a majority, you are”. Then you use that to make a completely evidencless assumption that less guns equals less crime - when we only have correlation of the opposite. So… while I really don’t like to apples and oranges… In 1997, Australia banned most all good defensive firearms. They also nearly doubled police per capita. Crime fell! But… in the USA crime fell by a greater amount over the same time period with no ban and only more guns added. So again; there is absolutely zero proof that less guns equals less crime, especially when faced that more guns hasn’t made more crime. > So my naive read Indeed. But the worse part is you don’t want the truth. You are looking for the lie. And going far to find it, why is that?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

skinkestek 5y ago

If you are actually interested you can do worse than to look at crime rates vs gun ownership in the Nordic countries, Switzerland, Austria and the Czeck Republic. Clearly something else than gun ownership / distribution has a massive influence. I mention ownership / distribution separately above since several of these countries have had fully equipped actual assault rifles like G3 etc (not crippled AR-15s) and ammunition stored in private homes for decades kn addition to huge amounts of hunting rifles, pistols, shotguns and unlicensed guns. A few suicides a year that's mostly it and removing the guns doesn't seem to work: I haven't heard about a massive drop on suicides since the Norwegians decided to store vital parts of the rifles in local depots.

jljljl 5y ago
The United States has 4x the number of guns per capita than any of the countries you've listed. Just taking Norway, the rate of handgun ownership is also significantly higher in the US. It could be the case that below a certain threshold, further reducing firearm availability does little to affect crime, but the US is probably far from that level
- skinkestek 5y ago
  I'd rather say that above a certain level it doesn't matter and all these countries are above it. So it is not about gun ownership but about gun culture abd culture generally.
  - jljljl 5y ago
    I would suggest that ownership and “gun culture” are closely related. A gun culture like Norway’s, where there are greater restrictions on registration and purchase of firearms, would probably lead to a reduction in firearms if applied to the US.
    - SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
      Schemes to prevent gun ownership, reduce gun ownership. Shocker.