8 ms·

Because you have self-respect and shouldn't be taking handouts if you're capable of working? No one capable of working should be taking unemployment, ever. Th

Because you have self-respect and shouldn't be taking handouts if you're capable of working? No one capable of working should be taking unemployment, ever. This is how social safety nets get demonized by politicians, and it works. A factory worker and mother of three who was making car parts from the start of COVID-19 until now and was never laid off and who never had the option of quitting work, fucking hates someone who sits on their ass collecting unemployment playing Xbox games all day. That's the relatively young Hispanic woman who lives down the road from me. I was fortunate; I already work remote so the only thing COVID did for me was restrict my dining choices temporarily here in Texas. The answer to every problem we seem to face in America always ends up being, "Just throw some fucking money at it!" I'm sick of it. Many of our problems couldn't be solved if we had literally quadrillions of dollars of cash. Sometimes - many times - it takes a lot of good old fashioned hard work, in the arenas of careful thinking, and then careful doing. Neither of which it seems either political party is particularly interested.

vladvasiliu 5y ago
I mostly agree with you. However, it may not (always) be that simple. The media here in France reports that some industries, in particular restaurants, are having a hard time finding employees, with not enough people applying and even employees who were there before Covid hit leaving. I don't know how actually true this is, but when they (the media) ask people why they won't go back, the main reason doesn't seem to be a preference for sitting on ass, but rather a realization that given the wages, those jobs were a terrible proposition. They claim instead to be looking at how they can improve their situation, like looking for work in other industries, going back to school, etc. Which I think is a good thing. How many random empty bars does a country really need? Now maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I hope that that's true and that this will at least increase wages for those jobs. But I can't help but think that all this soul-searching is helped by government aid and that, sooner or later, when that runs out, the people will have to get back to those jobs and then, whatever rise there might have been, will be swept away.
- secondcoming 5y ago
  > The media here in France reports that some industries, in particular restaurants, are having a hard time finding employees It's the same in the UK. Farmers cannot harvest some crops because the cheap EU labour is no longer present and locals won't do it.
  - atq2119 5y ago
    The cases are different though in that the UK situation is clearly mostly a consequence of Brexit. That doesn't apply to France.
- effingwewt 5y ago
  Here in California every restaurant/fast food place is hiring. They all list the things they offer (PTO, 401k-no matching what you put in, and that's it). What they don't put on the signs is what they pay (minimum wage every single time), or the hours (always part time, always weekends, mostly if not always nights. But obviously it's just that no one wants to work, it couldn't possibly be because no one wants part-time (especially because they change your days/hours and wait till the last minute to give you the next week's schedule so you can't plan around it and get another job). It couldn't possibly be because part-time minimum wage day-shifting jobs are literally worthless as these places are finding out. I keep hearing owners whine and bemoan their lack of workers. What I have never heard of, not once, is an owner making less profit to pay their workers better to get the loyalty and hard work they want but refuse to pay for.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    > I keep hearing owners whine and bemoan their lack of workers. What I have never heard of, not once, is an owner making less profit to pay their workers better to get the loyalty and hard work they want but refuse to pay for. I agree with you, but do those places actually make a lot of profit? Over here they seem to be pretty fragile operations, so I don't think there's that much they can shave off their profit and give to the workers. I'm wondering whether, maybe, there are simply too many of those restaurants? The reasoning goes "yeah, but if I raise my prices, people will go next door". Which is probably true for your random restaurant. But then maybe the issue is there's too many of them? But of course, up until now, this was workable because many people were willing to put up with the bad conditions you've described for a low wage.
briefcomment 5y ago
Taking the handouts is the most rational thing to do. Why would you expect people to do otherwise? Relying on unspoken normative rules is maybe possible in a society with well defined and perpetuated values, but in our current society, utility far outweighs values in decision making.
bumby 5y ago
>Because you have self-respect and shouldn't be taking handouts if you're capable of working? FWIW, I agree with you. But this is a moral take, not an economist’s. I think most economists would say people act to maximize utility. In the real world I think it’s both but it’s very hard to regulate/incentivize morals
User23 5y ago
Unemployment is one of the few ways government has ever done anything for me personally as opposed to general social goods. As a net payer into the system for the overwhelming majority of my working life I have absolutely no objection to getting a little of that money back when I hit a rough patch.
pillefitz 5y ago
Lacking self-respect for refusing to slave away in bullshit jobs that destroy our environment directly or indirectly, make some rich guy even richer or take place in a toxic work environment you mean?
spamizbad 5y ago
Actually we solved a ton of problems by throwing money at it: poverty dropped significantly. https://www.urban.org/research/publication/2021-poverty-projections-assessing-impact-benefits-and-stimulus-measures https://www.urban.org/research/publication/2021-poverty-proj...
hellbannedguy 5y ago
I just head this same rap from a blowhard senator who's state is loaded with Covid. "The self-respect that comes with working." Read this like you are nursing a hangover. Americans are fed up with lousy jobs that treat them like crap.
- f0xytr0xy 5y ago
  Most likely that senator is from a net-taker state like kentucky or arkansas, one that would be bankrupt without california and new york overpaying the fed to subsidize poor republican states.
  - bigbob2 5y ago
    There is also more affluence in California and the Northeast vs Middle America. Regardless of politics Middle America is not going to be granted the same economic opportunities as coastal regions.
    - f0xytr0xy 5y ago
      So, why should we subsidize them? I’m Californian and my taxes should go to help my home state, not those who hate me and my home? Kentucky and the rest of those moocher states should pull themselves up by their boot straps, stand on their own two feet and sink or swim.
      - bigbob2 5y ago
        Because we live in a Union? The idea is that your state will be helped if the table is ever turned. Not everyone in Kentucky hates California and the people who live there. What you're essentially promoting is reducing the role of federal government, which is the same thing current Kentucky senators want. I'm sorry to be so blunt but to be honest your comment sounds hateful and ignorant.
        f0xytr0xy 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
f0xytr0xy 5y ago
Breaking news: rich libertarian tech bro from a republican has harsh opinion on poor people.
charlesu 5y ago
Who said these people aren’t working? I see a lot of people retraining, pivoting, and taking care of others. That’s work. Just because it doesn’t pay doesn’t mean it isn’t work or valuable. Being a stay at home parent doesn’t pay, but it’s clearly valuable. Employment is a means to an end: basic survival. We do it because we’re forced to by forced scarcity. There may be virtue in work, but there’s no inherent virtue in employment.
notpachet 5y ago
This is a bit too reductionist for my liking. Imagine, as a kind of empathetic thought exercise, that instead of someone taking handouts and playing Xbox all day, they were taking handouts and then doing online coursework to try and learn a new skill to make themselves more employable in the future. Does that still imply a lack of self-respect? We're all effectively taking handouts to some degree or another just by participating in collective society. It's just a question of how much we're contributing back, and how. I try not to judge people too aggressively in terms of how they are contributing back; they may be doing so in ways that I cannot see.

vladvasiliu 5y ago

I mostly agree with you. However, it may not (always) be that simple. The media here in France reports that some industries, in particular restaurants, are having a hard time finding employees, with not enough people applying and even employees who were there before Covid hit leaving. I don't know how actually true this is, but when they (the media) ask people why they won't go back, the main reason doesn't seem to be a preference for sitting on ass, but rather a realization that given the wages, those jobs were a terrible proposition. They claim instead to be looking at how they can improve their situation, like looking for work in other industries, going back to school, etc. Which I think is a good thing. How many random empty bars does a country really need? Now maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I hope that that's true and that this will at least increase wages for those jobs. But I can't help but think that all this soul-searching is helped by government aid and that, sooner or later, when that runs out, the people will have to get back to those jobs and then, whatever rise there might have been, will be swept away.

secondcoming 5y ago
> The media here in France reports that some industries, in particular restaurants, are having a hard time finding employees It's the same in the UK. Farmers cannot harvest some crops because the cheap EU labour is no longer present and locals won't do it.
- atq2119 5y ago
  The cases are different though in that the UK situation is clearly mostly a consequence of Brexit. That doesn't apply to France.
effingwewt 5y ago
Here in California every restaurant/fast food place is hiring. They all list the things they offer (PTO, 401k-no matching what you put in, and that's it). What they don't put on the signs is what they pay (minimum wage every single time), or the hours (always part time, always weekends, mostly if not always nights. But obviously it's just that no one wants to work, it couldn't possibly be because no one wants part-time (especially because they change your days/hours and wait till the last minute to give you the next week's schedule so you can't plan around it and get another job). It couldn't possibly be because part-time minimum wage day-shifting jobs are literally worthless as these places are finding out. I keep hearing owners whine and bemoan their lack of workers. What I have never heard of, not once, is an owner making less profit to pay their workers better to get the loyalty and hard work they want but refuse to pay for.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  > I keep hearing owners whine and bemoan their lack of workers. What I have never heard of, not once, is an owner making less profit to pay their workers better to get the loyalty and hard work they want but refuse to pay for. I agree with you, but do those places actually make a lot of profit? Over here they seem to be pretty fragile operations, so I don't think there's that much they can shave off their profit and give to the workers. I'm wondering whether, maybe, there are simply too many of those restaurants? The reasoning goes "yeah, but if I raise my prices, people will go next door". Which is probably true for your random restaurant. But then maybe the issue is there's too many of them? But of course, up until now, this was workable because many people were willing to put up with the bad conditions you've described for a low wage.

briefcomment 5y ago

Taking the handouts is the most rational thing to do. Why would you expect people to do otherwise? Relying on unspoken normative rules is maybe possible in a society with well defined and perpetuated values, but in our current society, utility far outweighs values in decision making.

bumby 5y ago

>Because you have self-respect and shouldn't be taking handouts if you're capable of working? FWIW, I agree with you. But this is a moral take, not an economist’s. I think most economists would say people act to maximize utility. In the real world I think it’s both but it’s very hard to regulate/incentivize morals

User23 5y ago

Unemployment is one of the few ways government has ever done anything for me personally as opposed to general social goods. As a net payer into the system for the overwhelming majority of my working life I have absolutely no objection to getting a little of that money back when I hit a rough patch.

pillefitz 5y ago

Lacking self-respect for refusing to slave away in bullshit jobs that destroy our environment directly or indirectly, make some rich guy even richer or take place in a toxic work environment you mean?

spamizbad 5y ago

Actually we solved a ton of problems by throwing money at it: poverty dropped significantly. https://www.urban.org/research/publication/2021-poverty-projections-assessing-impact-benefits-and-stimulus-measures https://www.urban.org/research/publication/2021-poverty-proj...

hellbannedguy 5y ago

I just head this same rap from a blowhard senator who's state is loaded with Covid. "The self-respect that comes with working." Read this like you are nursing a hangover. Americans are fed up with lousy jobs that treat them like crap.

f0xytr0xy 5y ago
Most likely that senator is from a net-taker state like kentucky or arkansas, one that would be bankrupt without california and new york overpaying the fed to subsidize poor republican states.
- bigbob2 5y ago
  There is also more affluence in California and the Northeast vs Middle America. Regardless of politics Middle America is not going to be granted the same economic opportunities as coastal regions.
  - f0xytr0xy 5y ago
    So, why should we subsidize them? I’m Californian and my taxes should go to help my home state, not those who hate me and my home? Kentucky and the rest of those moocher states should pull themselves up by their boot straps, stand on their own two feet and sink or swim.
    - bigbob2 5y ago
      Because we live in a Union? The idea is that your state will be helped if the table is ever turned. Not everyone in Kentucky hates California and the people who live there. What you're essentially promoting is reducing the role of federal government, which is the same thing current Kentucky senators want. I'm sorry to be so blunt but to be honest your comment sounds hateful and ignorant.
      - f0xytr0xy 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

f0xytr0xy 5y ago

Breaking news: rich libertarian tech bro from a republican has harsh opinion on poor people.

charlesu 5y ago

Who said these people aren’t working? I see a lot of people retraining, pivoting, and taking care of others. That’s work. Just because it doesn’t pay doesn’t mean it isn’t work or valuable. Being a stay at home parent doesn’t pay, but it’s clearly valuable. Employment is a means to an end: basic survival. We do it because we’re forced to by forced scarcity. There may be virtue in work, but there’s no inherent virtue in employment.

notpachet 5y ago

This is a bit too reductionist for my liking. Imagine, as a kind of empathetic thought exercise, that instead of someone taking handouts and playing Xbox all day, they were taking handouts and then doing online coursework to try and learn a new skill to make themselves more employable in the future. Does that still imply a lack of self-respect? We're all effectively taking handouts to some degree or another just by participating in collective society. It's just a question of how much we're contributing back, and how. I try not to judge people too aggressively in terms of how they are contributing back; they may be doing so in ways that I cannot see.