4 ms·

How could Mozilla ever compete in technical merit nowadays? Google is siphoning nearly all talent by paying them insanely huge amounts of money. Web is part of

by foepys 5y ago

How could Mozilla ever compete in technical merit nowadays? Google is siphoning nearly all talent by paying them insanely huge amounts of money. Web is part of Google's core business and they will pour every little penny into it if it means they can be one step ahead and force others to follow them. How can Mozilla, a non-profit, compete with that? Even freaking Microsoft gave up! I'm insanely impressed with Mozilla that they can still keep up that well.

mfer 5y ago
Be useful to end users. Differentiate on that. Useful to people can be understood and is a selling point. What is technical merit? Some CS insider form of bragging rights?
- ordu 5y ago
  > Be useful to end users. Differentiate on that. What does it mean today? Most people want a browser that is invisible. They use sites, not browser.
  - arp242 5y ago
    That companies like Vivaldi and Brave can build successful for-profit businesses on top of a browser seems to indicate that it's a bit more complex than that. It's like the old quote about Microsoft Word, which was something along the lines of: "it's true that Word is bloated and that most people only use 10%, but everyone uses a different 10%".
    - foepys 5y ago
      Brave and Vivaldi outsourced the browser engine of the browser part to Google, though. That's the most expensive and work intensive part. They are also not part of any standardisation committee, as far as I know.
      - arp242 5y ago
        Sure, but I don't see how this relates here? My point was that people do want a browser that works well for them, and that the previous comment that "people want a browser that is invisible. They use sites, not browser." doesn't really fit with Brave and Vivaldi's success (also: Opera, and probably a few other browsers).
    - soundnote 5y ago
      Vivaldi isn't profitable, as far as I know. Brave possibly is. But Brave growing points to proper privacy being a workable selling point. To the end user the browser itself is basically stock Chromium + shields (some people get a BAT boner). But they don't do basically any UX side innovation per se, the way Microsoft or Vivaldi try do.
Nextgrid 5y ago
Security and privacy. I mean real privacy, not Firefox’s current illusion of privacy. Advertising is a common vector for malware, telemetry can inadvertently expose PII or corporate intel and so can their bullshit features such as Pocket that are foisted upon unsuspecting users. Make a browser that addresses these problems out of the box. The enterprise will be all over it and will be paying actual money for it so they no longer have to beg Google every year. At the moment Firefox is probably the most user-hostile piece of open-source software that I’m using. After installing it I have to disconnect from the network (as it loads Google Analytics-infested pages on first run and has telemetry enabled out of the box) and spend 10 minutes configuring it (including using about:config to disable Pocket) to defang it.
- andai 5y ago
  If Firefox becomes truly private out of the box, most of their funding goes away.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    But their funding will go away over time anyway as their marketshare plummets to zero. Furthermore, competitors such as Brave have successfully built businesses based on privacy & out-of-the-box ad blocking.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  It's delusional to think that building a browser that will appeal to a tiny tiny niche of users will win by word of mouth over billions of dollars in marketing. And let's go with your theory and assume enterprise will be all over this. Do you remember nothing of the IE6 era? Enterprise is the worst customer to have as a browser. It sounds like you're just pitching for a browser you wish people would build for you. I mean, just use the Tor browser, it fits your description just fine.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    > Do you remember nothing of the IE6 era? Enterprise is the worst customer to have as a browser. Can you elaborate? > It sounds like you're just pitching for a browser you wish people would build for you. I mean, just use the Tor browser, it fits your description just fine. I've already built said browser - Firefox can be configured this way. I'm just offering options & opinions on how they could turn the ship around, because clearly appealing to the mainstream by copying Chrome doesn't work, so maybe appealing to the power-user crowd (which was the reason Firefox and Mozilla became popular) would fare better, especially when it just requires minor config changes and bundling uBlock Origin out of the box.
aceazzameen 5y ago
UX. Mozilla is being outpaced by all competitors here, especially on mobile.
- MiddleEndian 5y ago
  I generally am not a fan of mobile browsers, but for me Firefox is the only passable mobile browser because it supports uBlock Origin.
  - aceazzameen 5y ago
    I agree with you, since I use it for the same reasons. But it will be easier for the general user to switch if it has a superior UX. Clearly ad-blocking is not enough for everyone else.
  - soundnote 5y ago
    Brave and Vivaldi have built-in adblockers.
eitland 5y ago
Get back the extension API (not the exact same but a modern equivalent). Keep bugging competition authorities to punish Google harshly over the abusive behavior we've seen lately. I'm using Firefox for now but I admit the moment someone forks it and have a good security foundation I'll start using it and donating to it. I'm fed up with Mozilla thinking everything else they donis more important than their main income source and main contribution to Internet. (Yes, I keep posting like this against both Mozilla and Google in the hope that they will one day improve or more realistically to increase the chance that someone else steps up. As WhatsApp proved before they were gutted by Facebook there is a large market that wants privacy and is willing to accept smaller problems and also pay for it.)
- dralley 5y ago
  > Get back the extension API (not the exact same but a modern equivalent). Another extension API will solve absolutely nothing.
  - eitland 5y ago
    just extend (heh) the current extension API with the most important missing ones like e.g. a hideBuiltinTabBar(). It is actually slightly more complicated since some stuff depends on the main tab bar being visible (or so they say, my Firefox works nicely even if I disable the main tab bar using a CSS hack.)
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    A fully functional and useful one would go a long way to getting me to give Firefox another chance, because it would make it possible to fix the things about Firefox that drove me away.

by foepys 5y ago

mfer 5y ago

Be useful to end users. Differentiate on that. Useful to people can be understood and is a selling point. What is technical merit? Some CS insider form of bragging rights?

ordu 5y ago
> Be useful to end users. Differentiate on that. What does it mean today? Most people want a browser that is invisible. They use sites, not browser.
- arp242 5y ago
  That companies like Vivaldi and Brave can build successful for-profit businesses on top of a browser seems to indicate that it's a bit more complex than that. It's like the old quote about Microsoft Word, which was something along the lines of: "it's true that Word is bloated and that most people only use 10%, but everyone uses a different 10%".
  - foepys 5y ago
    Brave and Vivaldi outsourced the browser engine of the browser part to Google, though. That's the most expensive and work intensive part. They are also not part of any standardisation committee, as far as I know.
    - arp242 5y ago
      Sure, but I don't see how this relates here? My point was that people do want a browser that works well for them, and that the previous comment that "people want a browser that is invisible. They use sites, not browser." doesn't really fit with Brave and Vivaldi's success (also: Opera, and probably a few other browsers).
  - soundnote 5y ago
    Vivaldi isn't profitable, as far as I know. Brave possibly is. But Brave growing points to proper privacy being a workable selling point. To the end user the browser itself is basically stock Chromium + shields (some people get a BAT boner). But they don't do basically any UX side innovation per se, the way Microsoft or Vivaldi try do.

Nextgrid 5y ago

Security and privacy. I mean real privacy, not Firefox’s current illusion of privacy. Advertising is a common vector for malware, telemetry can inadvertently expose PII or corporate intel and so can their bullshit features such as Pocket that are foisted upon unsuspecting users. Make a browser that addresses these problems out of the box. The enterprise will be all over it and will be paying actual money for it so they no longer have to beg Google every year. At the moment Firefox is probably the most user-hostile piece of open-source software that I’m using. After installing it I have to disconnect from the network (as it loads Google Analytics-infested pages on first run and has telemetry enabled out of the box) and spend 10 minutes configuring it (including using about:config to disable Pocket) to defang it.

andai 5y ago
If Firefox becomes truly private out of the box, most of their funding goes away.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  But their funding will go away over time anyway as their marketshare plummets to zero. Furthermore, competitors such as Brave have successfully built businesses based on privacy & out-of-the-box ad blocking.
scrollaway 5y ago
It's delusional to think that building a browser that will appeal to a tiny tiny niche of users will win by word of mouth over billions of dollars in marketing. And let's go with your theory and assume enterprise will be all over this. Do you remember nothing of the IE6 era? Enterprise is the worst customer to have as a browser. It sounds like you're just pitching for a browser you wish people would build for you. I mean, just use the Tor browser, it fits your description just fine.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > Do you remember nothing of the IE6 era? Enterprise is the worst customer to have as a browser. Can you elaborate? > It sounds like you're just pitching for a browser you wish people would build for you. I mean, just use the Tor browser, it fits your description just fine. I've already built said browser - Firefox can be configured this way. I'm just offering options & opinions on how they could turn the ship around, because clearly appealing to the mainstream by copying Chrome doesn't work, so maybe appealing to the power-user crowd (which was the reason Firefox and Mozilla became popular) would fare better, especially when it just requires minor config changes and bundling uBlock Origin out of the box.

aceazzameen 5y ago

UX. Mozilla is being outpaced by all competitors here, especially on mobile.

MiddleEndian 5y ago
I generally am not a fan of mobile browsers, but for me Firefox is the only passable mobile browser because it supports uBlock Origin.
- aceazzameen 5y ago
  I agree with you, since I use it for the same reasons. But it will be easier for the general user to switch if it has a superior UX. Clearly ad-blocking is not enough for everyone else.
- soundnote 5y ago
  Brave and Vivaldi have built-in adblockers.

eitland 5y ago

Get back the extension API (not the exact same but a modern equivalent). Keep bugging competition authorities to punish Google harshly over the abusive behavior we've seen lately. I'm using Firefox for now but I admit the moment someone forks it and have a good security foundation I'll start using it and donating to it. I'm fed up with Mozilla thinking everything else they donis more important than their main income source and main contribution to Internet. (Yes, I keep posting like this against both Mozilla and Google in the hope that they will one day improve or more realistically to increase the chance that someone else steps up. As WhatsApp proved before they were gutted by Facebook there is a large market that wants privacy and is willing to accept smaller problems and also pay for it.)

dralley 5y ago
> Get back the extension API (not the exact same but a modern equivalent). Another extension API will solve absolutely nothing.
- eitland 5y ago
  just extend (heh) the current extension API with the most important missing ones like e.g. a hideBuiltinTabBar(). It is actually slightly more complicated since some stuff depends on the main tab bar being visible (or so they say, my Firefox works nicely even if I disable the main tab bar using a CSS hack.)
- JohnFen 5y ago
  A fully functional and useful one would go a long way to getting me to give Firefox another chance, because it would make it possible to fix the things about Firefox that drove me away.