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We shouldn’t just look at power users. Google and Microsoft, for example, constantly advertise to use their browser when you visit their properties. I imagine t

by mfer 5y ago

We shouldn’t just look at power users. Google and Microsoft, for example, constantly advertise to use their browser when you visit their properties. I imagine this has an impact.

vladvasiliu 5y ago
Google, yes. But Microsoft? I haven't noticed, and I'm on Office 365 all day (my client uses that) while running Firefox / Linux. Microsoft does keep asking me to use Edge on my Windows gaming machine, although it's the only browser I have installed... But I guess the point is... where is Mozilla going to ask people to use Firefox?
- Phemist 5y ago
  But Microsoft? I haven't noticed > Try installing firefox (or even chrome) on a clean install of an updated windows 10.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    But that's a Windows thing, as opposed to "on the web", right? And as I've said, Windows bugs me about edge even though I've never installed anything else — the "use the recommended edge something or other". Whereas Google bugs me on all my machines (Mac / Linux / Windows, all without Chrome). My point was that using Firefox on Linux, I've never seen anything related to edge on MS sites (but I only use Office 365, Azure and, sometimes, the docs site).
- judge2020 5y ago
  Yes, I guess they mean Edge since the new Microsoft Edge uses chromium as their base browser. MS must have gotten tired of paying a huge team of devs to constantly fix and implement new web stuff in EdgeHTML/Chakra.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    It's actually the new, Chromium-based Edge. I've actually updated it when it asked, and the current Windows install came with it (installed it fresh around November 2020). But with every Windows 10 version change, it asks me to use the "recommended browser settings", whatever those are. This is a computer on which my most used browser is the Steam thing. I really don't care either way what it is, so I don't bother installing a specific one.
Nextgrid 5y ago
But if Firefox was genuinely better it could win via word of mouth; whether it’s power users recommending it or people having it on their work computers (because their IT mandates it) and wanting the same great browser at home. The problem is that Firefox is basically a Chrome clone at this point, all the way down to the privacy-invading features such as telemetry, so using it nowadays is more down to ideology than actual technical merit.
- foepys 5y ago
  How could Mozilla ever compete in technical merit nowadays? Google is siphoning nearly all talent by paying them insanely huge amounts of money. Web is part of Google's core business and they will pour every little penny into it if it means they can be one step ahead and force others to follow them. How can Mozilla, a non-profit, compete with that? Even freaking Microsoft gave up! I'm insanely impressed with Mozilla that they can still keep up that well.
  - mfer 5y ago
    Be useful to end users. Differentiate on that. Useful to people can be understood and is a selling point. What is technical merit? Some CS insider form of bragging rights?
    - ordu 5y ago
      > Be useful to end users. Differentiate on that. What does it mean today? Most people want a browser that is invisible. They use sites, not browser.
      - arp242 5y ago
        That companies like Vivaldi and Brave can build successful for-profit businesses on top of a browser seems to indicate that it's a bit more complex than that. It's like the old quote about Microsoft Word, which was something along the lines of: "it's true that Word is bloated and that most people only use 10%, but everyone uses a different 10%".

by mfer 5y ago

We shouldn’t just look at power users. Google and Microsoft, for example, constantly advertise to use their browser when you visit their properties. I imagine this has an impact.

vladvasiliu 5y ago

Google, yes. But Microsoft? I haven't noticed, and I'm on Office 365 all day (my client uses that) while running Firefox / Linux. Microsoft does keep asking me to use Edge on my Windows gaming machine, although it's the only browser I have installed... But I guess the point is... where is Mozilla going to ask people to use Firefox?

Phemist 5y ago
But Microsoft? I haven't noticed > Try installing firefox (or even chrome) on a clean install of an updated windows 10.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  But that's a Windows thing, as opposed to "on the web", right? And as I've said, Windows bugs me about edge even though I've never installed anything else — the "use the recommended edge something or other". Whereas Google bugs me on all my machines (Mac / Linux / Windows, all without Chrome). My point was that using Firefox on Linux, I've never seen anything related to edge on MS sites (but I only use Office 365, Azure and, sometimes, the docs site).
judge2020 5y ago
Yes, I guess they mean Edge since the new Microsoft Edge uses chromium as their base browser. MS must have gotten tired of paying a huge team of devs to constantly fix and implement new web stuff in EdgeHTML/Chakra.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  It's actually the new, Chromium-based Edge. I've actually updated it when it asked, and the current Windows install came with it (installed it fresh around November 2020). But with every Windows 10 version change, it asks me to use the "recommended browser settings", whatever those are. This is a computer on which my most used browser is the Steam thing. I really don't care either way what it is, so I don't bother installing a specific one.

Nextgrid 5y ago

But if Firefox was genuinely better it could win via word of mouth; whether it’s power users recommending it or people having it on their work computers (because their IT mandates it) and wanting the same great browser at home. The problem is that Firefox is basically a Chrome clone at this point, all the way down to the privacy-invading features such as telemetry, so using it nowadays is more down to ideology than actual technical merit.

foepys 5y ago
How could Mozilla ever compete in technical merit nowadays? Google is siphoning nearly all talent by paying them insanely huge amounts of money. Web is part of Google's core business and they will pour every little penny into it if it means they can be one step ahead and force others to follow them. How can Mozilla, a non-profit, compete with that? Even freaking Microsoft gave up! I'm insanely impressed with Mozilla that they can still keep up that well.
- mfer 5y ago
  Be useful to end users. Differentiate on that. Useful to people can be understood and is a selling point. What is technical merit? Some CS insider form of bragging rights?
  - ordu 5y ago
    > Be useful to end users. Differentiate on that. What does it mean today? Most people want a browser that is invisible. They use sites, not browser.
    - arp242 5y ago
      That companies like Vivaldi and Brave can build successful for-profit businesses on top of a browser seems to indicate that it's a bit more complex than that. It's like the old quote about Microsoft Word, which was something along the lines of: "it's true that Word is bloated and that most people only use 10%, but everyone uses a different 10%".