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And that is the price they pay for trying to be Chrome clone UI wise and not listening to to the "power users". I hate to use the words "power user" but it is t

And that is the price they pay for trying to be Chrome clone UI wise and not listening to to the "power users". I hate to use the words "power user" but it is the small group of very active and enthusiastic users that you need to give the appears to every one else that they are missing out on something cool. I still use Firefox because it works reasonably for my usage but I stopped promoting it to other people around me. For the average user Chrome is good, very good even. And Firefox lost its uniqueness and UI differences that made it stand out. And if nobody talks anymore about your product then you are done.

mfer 5y ago
We shouldn’t just look at power users. Google and Microsoft, for example, constantly advertise to use their browser when you visit their properties. I imagine this has an impact.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  Google, yes. But Microsoft? I haven't noticed, and I'm on Office 365 all day (my client uses that) while running Firefox / Linux. Microsoft does keep asking me to use Edge on my Windows gaming machine, although it's the only browser I have installed... But I guess the point is... where is Mozilla going to ask people to use Firefox?
  - Phemist 5y ago
    But Microsoft? I haven't noticed > Try installing firefox (or even chrome) on a clean install of an updated windows 10.
    - vladvasiliu 5y ago
      But that's a Windows thing, as opposed to "on the web", right? And as I've said, Windows bugs me about edge even though I've never installed anything else — the "use the recommended edge something or other". Whereas Google bugs me on all my machines (Mac / Linux / Windows, all without Chrome). My point was that using Firefox on Linux, I've never seen anything related to edge on MS sites (but I only use Office 365, Azure and, sometimes, the docs site).
  - judge2020 5y ago
    Yes, I guess they mean Edge since the new Microsoft Edge uses chromium as their base browser. MS must have gotten tired of paying a huge team of devs to constantly fix and implement new web stuff in EdgeHTML/Chakra.
    - vladvasiliu 5y ago
      It's actually the new, Chromium-based Edge. I've actually updated it when it asked, and the current Windows install came with it (installed it fresh around November 2020). But with every Windows 10 version change, it asks me to use the "recommended browser settings", whatever those are. This is a computer on which my most used browser is the Steam thing. I really don't care either way what it is, so I don't bother installing a specific one.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  But if Firefox was genuinely better it could win via word of mouth; whether it’s power users recommending it or people having it on their work computers (because their IT mandates it) and wanting the same great browser at home. The problem is that Firefox is basically a Chrome clone at this point, all the way down to the privacy-invading features such as telemetry, so using it nowadays is more down to ideology than actual technical merit.
  - foepys 5y ago
    How could Mozilla ever compete in technical merit nowadays? Google is siphoning nearly all talent by paying them insanely huge amounts of money. Web is part of Google's core business and they will pour every little penny into it if it means they can be one step ahead and force others to follow them. How can Mozilla, a non-profit, compete with that? Even freaking Microsoft gave up! I'm insanely impressed with Mozilla that they can still keep up that well.
    - mfer 5y ago
      Be useful to end users. Differentiate on that. Useful to people can be understood and is a selling point. What is technical merit? Some CS insider form of bragging rights?
      - ordu 5y ago
        > Be useful to end users. Differentiate on that. What does it mean today? Most people want a browser that is invisible. They use sites, not browser.
        arp242 5y ago
        That companies like Vivaldi and Brave can build successful for-profit businesses on top of a browser seems to indicate that it's a bit more complex than that. It's like the old quote about Microsoft Word, which was something along the lines of: "it's true that Word is bloated and that most people only use 10%, but everyone uses a different 10%".
hbt 5y ago
true. their api is now a dumbed down version of chrome. I still remember the days of vimperator and treetabs in xul. firefox did this to themselves. they dont deserve support.
- ohgodplsno 5y ago
  Tree Style Tabs exists: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-tab/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-ta... Vimperator replacements exist: https://github.com/tridactyl/tridactyl https://github.com/tridactyl/tridactyl Additionally, XUL was a steaming pile of shit, and there was no saving it. Multithreading was only possible by ripping out XUL.
  - eitland 5y ago
    > Additionally, XUL was a steaming pile of shit, and there was no saving it. Multithreading was only possible by ripping out XUL. Being hostile to people who ask nicely about getting some necessary features into the new API however, that is optional. Same goes for extracting all the money from Firefox and sacking important dev teams while continuing less important charity work.
  - hbt 5y ago
    I use and forked SurfingKeys on Chrome https://github.com/hbt/Surfingkeys https://github.com/hbt/Surfingkeys Calling tridactyl a replacement for vimperator ignores all the features and extensive customization available through the old Firefox API. I've used vimperator and pentadactyl and tridactyl doesn't even come close (because of the awful API limitations). My point is: Firefox API is now a cheap version of Chrome API. Why would you develop extensions for Firefox instead of Chrome? As a power user, it makes no sense to support Firefox. It offers less than chrome. They had firebug back when Chrome dev tools was crap, an amazing API for extensions and customization; they threw it all away for this mediocre crap chasing average users and are now playing the privacy / save the web card and guilt tripping people for not choosing them. They can offer better APIs, they are not entitled to power users. Power users write extensions, write tools for web developers, developers are the most importance resource. Who even bothers to test on Firefox now? For what, 7% market share? All that money and support; just all gone. Complete waste. Anyway, I sunk a lot of time into Firefox over the years and it was my browser of choice for years; I'm definitely still bitter about it. They literally abandoned power users. Fuck them.
truth_ 5y ago
I had to shift all my work and research related stuff to Chrome, and I do everything else in Firefox. After buying my new laptop five years ago, I decided that I would do the opposite. But could not keep at it. Before that, I used Firefox 100% of the times and now I use it, say, 10-15% of my browser usage time.
agumonkey 5y ago
the irony is that just when I voluntarily stop using chrome to help mozilla, they then get into the fads which really dont align with my usage :D
ohgodplsno 5y ago
Oh come on. "Power users" are both negligible in market share _and_ do not contribute to spreading the software around. Nobody in your family is going to use Firefox because you tell them "Look, I can customise my UI to arrange my windows in the form of a poop emoji when my custom sideloaded extension detects I'm on a Google owned website". "Power users" however are very good at yelling loudly when their never-used-by-anyone-except-them feature is removed, because they're such power users they opt out of usage tracking and never contribute to anything except maybe a bug report sometimes.

mfer 5y ago

We shouldn’t just look at power users. Google and Microsoft, for example, constantly advertise to use their browser when you visit their properties. I imagine this has an impact.

vladvasiliu 5y ago
Google, yes. But Microsoft? I haven't noticed, and I'm on Office 365 all day (my client uses that) while running Firefox / Linux. Microsoft does keep asking me to use Edge on my Windows gaming machine, although it's the only browser I have installed... But I guess the point is... where is Mozilla going to ask people to use Firefox?
- Phemist 5y ago
  But Microsoft? I haven't noticed > Try installing firefox (or even chrome) on a clean install of an updated windows 10.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    But that's a Windows thing, as opposed to "on the web", right? And as I've said, Windows bugs me about edge even though I've never installed anything else — the "use the recommended edge something or other". Whereas Google bugs me on all my machines (Mac / Linux / Windows, all without Chrome). My point was that using Firefox on Linux, I've never seen anything related to edge on MS sites (but I only use Office 365, Azure and, sometimes, the docs site).
- judge2020 5y ago
  Yes, I guess they mean Edge since the new Microsoft Edge uses chromium as their base browser. MS must have gotten tired of paying a huge team of devs to constantly fix and implement new web stuff in EdgeHTML/Chakra.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    It's actually the new, Chromium-based Edge. I've actually updated it when it asked, and the current Windows install came with it (installed it fresh around November 2020). But with every Windows 10 version change, it asks me to use the "recommended browser settings", whatever those are. This is a computer on which my most used browser is the Steam thing. I really don't care either way what it is, so I don't bother installing a specific one.
Nextgrid 5y ago
But if Firefox was genuinely better it could win via word of mouth; whether it’s power users recommending it or people having it on their work computers (because their IT mandates it) and wanting the same great browser at home. The problem is that Firefox is basically a Chrome clone at this point, all the way down to the privacy-invading features such as telemetry, so using it nowadays is more down to ideology than actual technical merit.
- foepys 5y ago
  How could Mozilla ever compete in technical merit nowadays? Google is siphoning nearly all talent by paying them insanely huge amounts of money. Web is part of Google's core business and they will pour every little penny into it if it means they can be one step ahead and force others to follow them. How can Mozilla, a non-profit, compete with that? Even freaking Microsoft gave up! I'm insanely impressed with Mozilla that they can still keep up that well.
  - mfer 5y ago
    Be useful to end users. Differentiate on that. Useful to people can be understood and is a selling point. What is technical merit? Some CS insider form of bragging rights?
    - ordu 5y ago
      > Be useful to end users. Differentiate on that. What does it mean today? Most people want a browser that is invisible. They use sites, not browser.
      - arp242 5y ago
        That companies like Vivaldi and Brave can build successful for-profit businesses on top of a browser seems to indicate that it's a bit more complex than that. It's like the old quote about Microsoft Word, which was something along the lines of: "it's true that Word is bloated and that most people only use 10%, but everyone uses a different 10%".

hbt 5y ago

true. their api is now a dumbed down version of chrome. I still remember the days of vimperator and treetabs in xul. firefox did this to themselves. they dont deserve support.

ohgodplsno 5y ago
Tree Style Tabs exists: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-tab/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-ta... Vimperator replacements exist: https://github.com/tridactyl/tridactyl https://github.com/tridactyl/tridactyl Additionally, XUL was a steaming pile of shit, and there was no saving it. Multithreading was only possible by ripping out XUL.
- eitland 5y ago
  > Additionally, XUL was a steaming pile of shit, and there was no saving it. Multithreading was only possible by ripping out XUL. Being hostile to people who ask nicely about getting some necessary features into the new API however, that is optional. Same goes for extracting all the money from Firefox and sacking important dev teams while continuing less important charity work.
- hbt 5y ago
  I use and forked SurfingKeys on Chrome https://github.com/hbt/Surfingkeys https://github.com/hbt/Surfingkeys Calling tridactyl a replacement for vimperator ignores all the features and extensive customization available through the old Firefox API. I've used vimperator and pentadactyl and tridactyl doesn't even come close (because of the awful API limitations). My point is: Firefox API is now a cheap version of Chrome API. Why would you develop extensions for Firefox instead of Chrome? As a power user, it makes no sense to support Firefox. It offers less than chrome. They had firebug back when Chrome dev tools was crap, an amazing API for extensions and customization; they threw it all away for this mediocre crap chasing average users and are now playing the privacy / save the web card and guilt tripping people for not choosing them. They can offer better APIs, they are not entitled to power users. Power users write extensions, write tools for web developers, developers are the most importance resource. Who even bothers to test on Firefox now? For what, 7% market share? All that money and support; just all gone. Complete waste. Anyway, I sunk a lot of time into Firefox over the years and it was my browser of choice for years; I'm definitely still bitter about it. They literally abandoned power users. Fuck them.

truth_ 5y ago

I had to shift all my work and research related stuff to Chrome, and I do everything else in Firefox. After buying my new laptop five years ago, I decided that I would do the opposite. But could not keep at it. Before that, I used Firefox 100% of the times and now I use it, say, 10-15% of my browser usage time.

agumonkey 5y ago

the irony is that just when I voluntarily stop using chrome to help mozilla, they then get into the fads which really dont align with my usage :D

ohgodplsno 5y ago

Oh come on. "Power users" are both negligible in market share _and_ do not contribute to spreading the software around. Nobody in your family is going to use Firefox because you tell them "Look, I can customise my UI to arrange my windows in the form of a poop emoji when my custom sideloaded extension detects I'm on a Google owned website". "Power users" however are very good at yelling loudly when their never-used-by-anyone-except-them feature is removed, because they're such power users they opt out of usage tracking and never contribute to anything except maybe a bug report sometimes.