9 ms·

Most people infected in Provincetown Covid outbreak were vaccinated, CDC shows

11 points by mardiyah 5y ago

Fjolsvith 5y ago
So they risked blood clots and still got the virus.
- gibba999 5y ago
  1 in 250,000 get blood clots after the vaccine. That's an acceptable risk. If everyone in the US were vaccinated, the number of blood clots would be around the same as the number of injuries from being struck by lightening. 1 in 5 people infected with COVID develop long COVID. That's not an acceptable risk. Even a 0.000004% reduction in the risk of long COVID is worth the risk of a blood clot. Blood clots are a lot less scary than long COVID.
  - captainredbeard 5y ago
    > Blood clots are a lot less scary than long COVID Umm, yeah, blood clots are worse.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
      Well, if that's true, you should get vaccinated against COVID: "The incidence of CVT in the two weeks after a COVID-19 diagnosis was ... significantly higher than in a matched cohort of people who received an mRNA vaccine" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589537021003412 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S258953702... "an 8 fold increase after diagnosis of COVID-19" https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3886421 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3886421 https://twitter.com/timspector/status/1421087092155813895 https://twitter.com/timspector/status/1421087092155813895
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    FYI parent commenter has form on this topic, is likely not someone who can be rationally persuaded. Check their comment history. Be sure to "show dead" comments, and be prepared for repetition.
    - Fjolsvith 5y ago
      I have seen too many videos and read too many accounts of healthy people who have either suffered terrible effects after the jab, or who have relatives or friends who have suffered. Besides, here in Western Kansas, I know of no one in two counties with long-term COVID complications, but I know many people with long-term VACCINE complications. Get the Vaccine and you will suffer for it.
      - GoRudy 5y ago
        Those sound like all second hand accounts.. we could watch videos and read stories of plane crashes and say they are unsafe but we know that’s not true.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        > I have seen too many videos and read too many accounts of healthy people I agree, you mostly likely have watched "too many" of those videos. The other problem is that you believe them uncritically, and won't stop spreading the rubbish that you absorbed. YouTube and FaceBook is not an education. Does HN have a policy against straight-up actual false, scaremongering COVID public health statements like the "I know many people with long-term VACCINE complications. Get the Vaccine and you will suffer for it" one? Which COVID-19 vaccine was "Get the Vaccine and ..." referring to, anyway? There are several, with different modes of operation.
        didjathinkmess 5y ago
        >Does HN have a policy against straight-up actual false, scaremongering COVID public health statements like the "I know many people with long-term VACCINE complications. Get the Vaccine and you will suffer for it" one? Unfortunately no. They also allow straight-up actual false, scaremongering COVID public health statements like the "I know many people with long-term COVID complications. Get the vaccine or you will suffer from them". See the problem? They could both be false, or they could both be true. But if they're both true, what your suggesting is the censorship of not misinformation, but the actual account of a real life vaccine injury.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    > If everyone in the US were vaccinated, the number of blood clots would be around the same as the number of injuries from being struck by lightening. Yes, and if no-one in the US was vaccinated against COVID-19, then the number of blood clots would be higher than that. Why? because it seems that the risk of blood clods after getting COVID-19 is higher than after getting vaccinated https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3886421 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3886421 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589537021003412 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S258953702... As an argument against vaccination, "but blood clots" falls flat. I mean, even after cherry-picking this one specific harm and systematically ignoring all others, it still fails to be a valid point.
    - Fjolsvith 5y ago
      https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data The data speaks for itself.
      - shadowgovt 5y ago
        Data never speaks for itself. In this case, openvaers has chosen to massage raw data in a misleading fashion. The VAERS dataset vendors explicitly warn against doing exactly what openvaers is doing because of the likelihood of drawing false conclusions. https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/dataguide.html https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/dataguide.html
  - forcry 5y ago
    > 1 in 250,000 get blood clots after the vaccine. Were does this number come from? If it is from VAERS, this number should be multiplied by 100, to offset the under reporting, (only 1% of the actual events are reported, but even that is speculation, and truth is, we have no real idea) So 1 in 2500. And this is just one AEFI, blood clots. Also, in addition to keeping VAERS powerless to capture high quality data, things like this https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/defining-away-vaccine-safety-signals https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/defining-away-vaccin... Does not inspire much confidence..
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      If it's from VAERS, the number should have a "correlation does not imply causation" asterisk next to it.
  - Fjolsvith 5y ago
    https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data
- anonymouswacker 5y ago
  Obviously a rushed vaccine is not going to be as effective & safe. There is no magic bullet.
- karmakaze 5y ago
  > Critically, the study found that vaccinated individuals carried as much virus in their noses as unvaccinated individuals, strongly suggesting that vaccinated people could spread the virus to one another. The takeaway is that even vaccinated people should wear masks.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    > Critically, the study found that vaccinated individuals carried as much virus in their noses as unvaccinated individuals, If they get infected. Which is less likely. But yes, the Delta variant is worse, we have to stop it spreading by all means, so mask up!
    - karmakaze 5y ago
      There's no 'if' about it--since the vaccinated are carrying as much virus in their noses they're still spreading it.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        > since the vaccinated are carrying as much virus in their noses Only if they catch COVID, which is much less likely after vaccination. What, are you assuming that everyone is carrying COVID in their noses all the time?
      - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        I think there is a miscommunication here: There's no 'if' about "should people, even fully vaccinated people mask up" - yes they should because they _might_ be carrying the COVID-19 virus, albeit at a lower chance of infection than unvaccinated people. And if they are infected. which is less likely but does happen, they will still carry and spread COVID. That's where the "if" goes.
SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
In case you're wondering how this kind of scenario can come about quite easily even though the vaccines are quite effective against bad outcomes, this graphic, originally from the Financial Times of London can help: Sorry that I don't have a better source for it https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1418952126244478977 https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1418952126244478977 https://i.redd.it/km870p4xn1d71.jpg https://i.redd.it/km870p4xn1d71.jpg
- didjathinkmess 5y ago
  Thanks, I was wondering how this rather serious disaster was going to get spun. Will be on the lookout out for "it's actually a good thing!" posts like the Twitter one. Reducing the symptoms if someone is actually infected is fantastic. You know what would be way more impressive? If the vaccines actually stopped the spread of COVID-19. The way I'm reading this and Fauci's statements about having equal viral load is that the unvaccinated and vaccinated both spread the virus, likely at the same rate. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9839697/Fauci-says-CDC-changed-mask-guidance-vaccinated-people-spread-Indian-Delta-variant.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9839697/Fauci-say... Guess we won't be able to blame the unvaccinated for recent spread anymore.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    > Will be on the lookout out for "it's actually a good thing!" posts like the Twitter one. Covid outbreaks are not a good thing, not sure why you would claim that? Even when they demonstrate the relative effectiveness of the vaccines. > you know what would be way more impressive? If the vaccines actually stopped the spread of COVID-19 Again, I'm no sure what your point is. Given that we have 80% effective vaccines, what should we do, use them or not? > Guess we won't be able to blame the unvaccinated for recent spread anymore. To be clear, are you suggesting that _lower_ vaccination rates would result in less spread of COVID? Yeah, have another think about that. The rest of the diagram is just arithmetic. The results are counter-intuitive, but it's not calculus. FYI, No point in linking to The Daily Mail UK, it is not in any sense a serious publication. Wikipedia wont take it, we shouldn't either.

11 points by mardiyah 5y ago

Fjolsvith 5y ago

So they risked blood clots and still got the virus.

gibba999 5y ago
1 in 250,000 get blood clots after the vaccine. That's an acceptable risk. If everyone in the US were vaccinated, the number of blood clots would be around the same as the number of injuries from being struck by lightening. 1 in 5 people infected with COVID develop long COVID. That's not an acceptable risk. Even a 0.000004% reduction in the risk of long COVID is worth the risk of a blood clot. Blood clots are a lot less scary than long COVID.
- captainredbeard 5y ago
  > Blood clots are a lot less scary than long COVID Umm, yeah, blood clots are worse.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    Well, if that's true, you should get vaccinated against COVID: "The incidence of CVT in the two weeks after a COVID-19 diagnosis was ... significantly higher than in a matched cohort of people who received an mRNA vaccine" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589537021003412 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S258953702... "an 8 fold increase after diagnosis of COVID-19" https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3886421 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3886421 https://twitter.com/timspector/status/1421087092155813895 https://twitter.com/timspector/status/1421087092155813895
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  FYI parent commenter has form on this topic, is likely not someone who can be rationally persuaded. Check their comment history. Be sure to "show dead" comments, and be prepared for repetition.
  - Fjolsvith 5y ago
    I have seen too many videos and read too many accounts of healthy people who have either suffered terrible effects after the jab, or who have relatives or friends who have suffered. Besides, here in Western Kansas, I know of no one in two counties with long-term COVID complications, but I know many people with long-term VACCINE complications. Get the Vaccine and you will suffer for it.
    - GoRudy 5y ago
      Those sound like all second hand accounts.. we could watch videos and read stories of plane crashes and say they are unsafe but we know that’s not true.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
      > I have seen too many videos and read too many accounts of healthy people I agree, you mostly likely have watched "too many" of those videos. The other problem is that you believe them uncritically, and won't stop spreading the rubbish that you absorbed. YouTube and FaceBook is not an education. Does HN have a policy against straight-up actual false, scaremongering COVID public health statements like the "I know many people with long-term VACCINE complications. Get the Vaccine and you will suffer for it" one? Which COVID-19 vaccine was "Get the Vaccine and ..." referring to, anyway? There are several, with different modes of operation.
      - didjathinkmess 5y ago
        >Does HN have a policy against straight-up actual false, scaremongering COVID public health statements like the "I know many people with long-term VACCINE complications. Get the Vaccine and you will suffer for it" one? Unfortunately no. They also allow straight-up actual false, scaremongering COVID public health statements like the "I know many people with long-term COVID complications. Get the vaccine or you will suffer from them". See the problem? They could both be false, or they could both be true. But if they're both true, what your suggesting is the censorship of not misinformation, but the actual account of a real life vaccine injury.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  > If everyone in the US were vaccinated, the number of blood clots would be around the same as the number of injuries from being struck by lightening. Yes, and if no-one in the US was vaccinated against COVID-19, then the number of blood clots would be higher than that. Why? because it seems that the risk of blood clods after getting COVID-19 is higher than after getting vaccinated https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3886421 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3886421 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589537021003412 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S258953702... As an argument against vaccination, "but blood clots" falls flat. I mean, even after cherry-picking this one specific harm and systematically ignoring all others, it still fails to be a valid point.
  - Fjolsvith 5y ago
    https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data The data speaks for itself.
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      Data never speaks for itself. In this case, openvaers has chosen to massage raw data in a misleading fashion. The VAERS dataset vendors explicitly warn against doing exactly what openvaers is doing because of the likelihood of drawing false conclusions. https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/dataguide.html https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/dataguide.html
- forcry 5y ago
  > 1 in 250,000 get blood clots after the vaccine. Were does this number come from? If it is from VAERS, this number should be multiplied by 100, to offset the under reporting, (only 1% of the actual events are reported, but even that is speculation, and truth is, we have no real idea) So 1 in 2500. And this is just one AEFI, blood clots. Also, in addition to keeping VAERS powerless to capture high quality data, things like this https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/defining-away-vaccine-safety-signals https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/defining-away-vaccin... Does not inspire much confidence..
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    If it's from VAERS, the number should have a "correlation does not imply causation" asterisk next to it.
- Fjolsvith 5y ago
  https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data
anonymouswacker 5y ago
Obviously a rushed vaccine is not going to be as effective & safe. There is no magic bullet.
karmakaze 5y ago
> Critically, the study found that vaccinated individuals carried as much virus in their noses as unvaccinated individuals, strongly suggesting that vaccinated people could spread the virus to one another. The takeaway is that even vaccinated people should wear masks.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  > Critically, the study found that vaccinated individuals carried as much virus in their noses as unvaccinated individuals, If they get infected. Which is less likely. But yes, the Delta variant is worse, we have to stop it spreading by all means, so mask up!
  - karmakaze 5y ago
    There's no 'if' about it--since the vaccinated are carrying as much virus in their noses they're still spreading it.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
      > since the vaccinated are carrying as much virus in their noses Only if they catch COVID, which is much less likely after vaccination. What, are you assuming that everyone is carrying COVID in their noses all the time?
    - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
      I think there is a miscommunication here: There's no 'if' about "should people, even fully vaccinated people mask up" - yes they should because they _might_ be carrying the COVID-19 virus, albeit at a lower chance of infection than unvaccinated people. And if they are infected. which is less likely but does happen, they will still carry and spread COVID. That's where the "if" goes.

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

In case you're wondering how this kind of scenario can come about quite easily even though the vaccines are quite effective against bad outcomes, this graphic, originally from the Financial Times of London can help: Sorry that I don't have a better source for it https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1418952126244478977 https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1418952126244478977 https://i.redd.it/km870p4xn1d71.jpg https://i.redd.it/km870p4xn1d71.jpg

didjathinkmess 5y ago
Thanks, I was wondering how this rather serious disaster was going to get spun. Will be on the lookout out for "it's actually a good thing!" posts like the Twitter one. Reducing the symptoms if someone is actually infected is fantastic. You know what would be way more impressive? If the vaccines actually stopped the spread of COVID-19. The way I'm reading this and Fauci's statements about having equal viral load is that the unvaccinated and vaccinated both spread the virus, likely at the same rate. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9839697/Fauci-says-CDC-changed-mask-guidance-vaccinated-people-spread-Indian-Delta-variant.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9839697/Fauci-say... Guess we won't be able to blame the unvaccinated for recent spread anymore.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  > Will be on the lookout out for "it's actually a good thing!" posts like the Twitter one. Covid outbreaks are not a good thing, not sure why you would claim that? Even when they demonstrate the relative effectiveness of the vaccines. > you know what would be way more impressive? If the vaccines actually stopped the spread of COVID-19 Again, I'm no sure what your point is. Given that we have 80% effective vaccines, what should we do, use them or not? > Guess we won't be able to blame the unvaccinated for recent spread anymore. To be clear, are you suggesting that _lower_ vaccination rates would result in less spread of COVID? Yeah, have another think about that. The rest of the diagram is just arithmetic. The results are counter-intuitive, but it's not calculus. FYI, No point in linking to The Daily Mail UK, it is not in any sense a serious publication. Wikipedia wont take it, we shouldn't either.