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Have you tried remote-only positions? I’d assume they tend to care less about age, if that’s the problem. I employ freelancers and pay competitive fees by Euro

Have you tried remote-only positions? I’d assume they tend to care less about age, if that’s the problem. I employ freelancers and pay competitive fees by European standards. I would hire someone with your experience without thinking too much about it (provided you had a modicum of people skills) since I only care about people being courteous and getting the job done, and not about “culture”…

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
As noted elsewhere, it seems Europe may be a better place for older folks. I know that some nations have some fairly strict laws about discrimination. In the US, we have the same laws. It's flat-out illegal to discriminate by age, as it is by race, religion, gender, pregnancy, marital status, etc. Out of that list, if a company tries anything other than age discrimination, they are pilloried and investigated. However, in the IT industry, age discrimination is actively encouraged. Companies write job ads that basically say "Bros only." The story I hear, is that older folks are "just waiting for retirement, and won't be loyal." That's rich, in an industry that has been completely formed around the idea that engineers will stay at a company for no more than two years. In my case, I had my retirement set, years ago, and would have been willing to work for half of what a lot of younger folks would demand, if the work was motivating, and the work environment was good. I have an enormous portfolio of exemplary work. My skills are "five minutes old." I'm not some old duffer, sitting on COBOL skills (which, I understand, would actually have made me more attractive). It's been my experience that no one ever bothers to look at the portfolio. They've already made up their mind, and the only reason they are talking to me, is to tick off an EEOC checkbox.
- BlissWaves 5y ago
  I don't see any evidence Europe being better for older folks. On top of that salaries are really really low in Europe. Unless you are in the US and are going to graduate university at 22-23 best to forget about a career in STEM. Not worth the effort and time. Milk has a longer expiry date than a STEM worker who's perceived over the hill late-twenties or early thirties.
  - saiya-jin 5y ago
    Many things in those sentences are plainly not true. In Europe, you can get very rich (by say western european standards) if you do 1-man consulting well. I mean in top 0.01% salary bracket for some countries while having fairly standard current skillset (soft and hard skills). Switzerland and Luxembourg have very high permanent salaries - not SV levels, but definitely fine ones and affording a great lifestyle. Quality of life, say in Switzerland, (and I know this can be a hot topic that depends on personal preferences) is way better than basically anything US can offer for similar wealth bracket. That's my personal view, based on my personal opinions, evaluations and wish to give my kids the best and healthiest environment to grow up in so obviously not universally true. Older dudes are definitely very supported here, but this is specific per sector/company. Average age of my coworkers (banking en Suisse) is around 45-50, all devs, admins, devops. We wanted to hire one 55 year old guy for dev position last week, we made him (a generous) offer already but he chose a different position. He didn't have the skillset list much bigger than what is flying around by OP (maybe some crypto stuff but we don't do it yet). What you describe are mostly startups full of folks who want to get rich quickly, mostly fail, have attention span shorter than tick of second hand on my watch. You can find those everywhere. But that's a relatively small part of the market and at least here definitely not the best paying one.
    - BlissWaves 5y ago
      Luxemburg junior salary average is 36K, take home around 2300. 1300 for rent and food you are left with 1000 euros. Germany is where startups valued at $25bn and $45bn (Zalando and Klarna) are paying less than $100k for 10 YoE with >40% income tax. Please let's not discuss already obvious things though I agree that Switzerland is better in terms of salary and taxes. As per your own company you are using anecdotal evidence. Ageism in tech is very well-known and pretending it does not exist is not going to fix antyhing.
    - tharkun__ 5y ago
      Since you mention banking (and I don't want to be ageist here, greyhair here as well) is the prototype of an old, crusty and backwards environment where nothing changes and nothing gets done at a reasonable pace. Unless you think of crazy deadlines being given as reasonable pace. Speaking from experience. I never want to work in a bank ever again.
- bachmeier 5y ago
  > In the US, we have the same laws. It's flat-out illegal to discriminate by age, as it is by race, religion, gender, pregnancy, marital status, etc. This is true, sort of. Age discrimination is different where it matters - the threshold to prove age discrimination is so high that the law could just as well not exist.
- royallineage 5y ago
  > I have an enormous portfolio of exemplary work Lol

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

As noted elsewhere, it seems Europe may be a better place for older folks. I know that some nations have some fairly strict laws about discrimination. In the US, we have the same laws. It's flat-out illegal to discriminate by age, as it is by race, religion, gender, pregnancy, marital status, etc. Out of that list, if a company tries anything other than age discrimination, they are pilloried and investigated. However, in the IT industry, age discrimination is actively encouraged. Companies write job ads that basically say "Bros only." The story I hear, is that older folks are "just waiting for retirement, and won't be loyal." That's rich, in an industry that has been completely formed around the idea that engineers will stay at a company for no more than two years. In my case, I had my retirement set, years ago, and would have been willing to work for half of what a lot of younger folks would demand, if the work was motivating, and the work environment was good. I have an enormous portfolio of exemplary work. My skills are "five minutes old." I'm not some old duffer, sitting on COBOL skills (which, I understand, would actually have made me more attractive). It's been my experience that no one ever bothers to look at the portfolio. They've already made up their mind, and the only reason they are talking to me, is to tick off an EEOC checkbox.

BlissWaves 5y ago
I don't see any evidence Europe being better for older folks. On top of that salaries are really really low in Europe. Unless you are in the US and are going to graduate university at 22-23 best to forget about a career in STEM. Not worth the effort and time. Milk has a longer expiry date than a STEM worker who's perceived over the hill late-twenties or early thirties.
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  Many things in those sentences are plainly not true. In Europe, you can get very rich (by say western european standards) if you do 1-man consulting well. I mean in top 0.01% salary bracket for some countries while having fairly standard current skillset (soft and hard skills). Switzerland and Luxembourg have very high permanent salaries - not SV levels, but definitely fine ones and affording a great lifestyle. Quality of life, say in Switzerland, (and I know this can be a hot topic that depends on personal preferences) is way better than basically anything US can offer for similar wealth bracket. That's my personal view, based on my personal opinions, evaluations and wish to give my kids the best and healthiest environment to grow up in so obviously not universally true. Older dudes are definitely very supported here, but this is specific per sector/company. Average age of my coworkers (banking en Suisse) is around 45-50, all devs, admins, devops. We wanted to hire one 55 year old guy for dev position last week, we made him (a generous) offer already but he chose a different position. He didn't have the skillset list much bigger than what is flying around by OP (maybe some crypto stuff but we don't do it yet). What you describe are mostly startups full of folks who want to get rich quickly, mostly fail, have attention span shorter than tick of second hand on my watch. You can find those everywhere. But that's a relatively small part of the market and at least here definitely not the best paying one.
  - BlissWaves 5y ago
    Luxemburg junior salary average is 36K, take home around 2300. 1300 for rent and food you are left with 1000 euros. Germany is where startups valued at $25bn and $45bn (Zalando and Klarna) are paying less than $100k for 10 YoE with >40% income tax. Please let's not discuss already obvious things though I agree that Switzerland is better in terms of salary and taxes. As per your own company you are using anecdotal evidence. Ageism in tech is very well-known and pretending it does not exist is not going to fix antyhing.
  - tharkun__ 5y ago
    Since you mention banking (and I don't want to be ageist here, greyhair here as well) is the prototype of an old, crusty and backwards environment where nothing changes and nothing gets done at a reasonable pace. Unless you think of crazy deadlines being given as reasonable pace. Speaking from experience. I never want to work in a bank ever again.
bachmeier 5y ago
> In the US, we have the same laws. It's flat-out illegal to discriminate by age, as it is by race, religion, gender, pregnancy, marital status, etc. This is true, sort of. Age discrimination is different where it matters - the threshold to prove age discrimination is so high that the law could just as well not exist.
royallineage 5y ago
> I have an enormous portfolio of exemplary work Lol