6 ms·

It would be nice to hear an Italian teacher read this article

davidelettieri 5y ago
I'm Italian but not a teacher. The rules seems mostly reasonable but I think the author is wrong in the Diphthongs section. In the word "pietà" the "i" is not pronounced as in yarn. If you want an "i" as in yarn you need something like "iato". In my personal opinion (not at all an expert on languages) an English speaker should work mostly on "gn" and "gl" since in Italian they form a single sound together while English speaking people split the sounds in two parts like "g-n".
- qalmakka 5y ago
  I think you're mistaken about the 'y' part; what the author is trying to convey is that [i] in Italian is both the vowel /i/ and the consonant /j/ depending on the context. /j/ is typically rendered in English using [y] (but not always). Pietà is definitely /pje'ta/, not /pie'ta/, like the [i] in ieri /'jeri/ - at least that's how I've always pronounced that. It would have been better if Italian just kept using the letter [j] - it was invented by an Italian guy to solve this kind of ambiguity after all.
  - olau 5y ago
    I don't think the person is mistaken, I think people pronounce it in different ways depending on where they come from. The three examples here does not seem to be pronounced like ieri: https://forvo.com/word/piet%C3%A0/ https://forvo.com/word/piet%C3%A0/ Perchance you're speaking a dialect? Happens to all of us. :) Not a native speaker and my Italian is terrible, but I've always loved the Italian i vowels. They are so clear and distinct.
    - riffraff 5y ago
      As a native, I do agree with the original (pietà is not pjetà). So maybe it is a regional pronunciation issue. Or maybe it's like someone who can feel that the proper plural of "figlio" (figli) would have a long "i" (figlî, in some old books) even if it's not really there anymore.
      - qalmakka 5y ago
        Italian phonology is clear - approximants like /j/ and /w/ always appear in diphthongs, unless in very rare occurrences; i.e. ài, èi, éi, òi, ói, ùi; àu, èu, éu -> /aj/, /εj/, /ej/, /ɔj/, /oj/, /uj/; /aw/, / εw/, /ew/. For instance, piede is /'pjede/, while tuorlo is /'tworlo/. IPA in Italian dictionaries is very rare, but the only examples I found specify /'pjeta/. Italian pronunciation has never been standardized by anyone, so pronunciation may vary, but unless my knowledge of phonology is completely wrong there's an appoximant in "pietà", like in pieno /'pjeno/ and piano /'pjano/. To avoid i to switch to /j/ there needs to be a "iato", which splits words onto two separate syllables. For instance, mormorio is /mormo'rio/, not /mormo'rjo/. In this case, the word gets split in syllables as mor-mo-RI-o, and the i doesn't become an approximant. Pietà is pie-TÀ, not pi-e-TÀ, because the ie is in a diphthong, so it's /je/.
  - ithkuil 5y ago
    Gian Giorgio Trissino,. 1524 formalized the distinction. Prior to that it was just two variant shapes of the same letter. I saw it still being used on some street signs. Jonio, Jesolo, ...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- 1_player 5y ago
  The closest phonetic approximation to "gn" is the "ny" in canyon, and the approximation to "gl" is the double l in billion.
- jaclaz 5y ago
  >... an English speaker should work mostly on ... ... and on double consonants (like BTW a number of Italians, which regional pronounce can be quite opposite, as an example venetians making any double single and romans making most single doubles) ... The "j" was once used in writing too, called "i consonantica" when it is followed by a vowel, it remained in historical names like Jacopo but became a "normal" i in - say - acciaio (that was once written acciajo).

I'm Italian but not a teacher. The rules seems mostly reasonable but I think the author is wrong in the Diphthongs section. In the word "pietà" the "i" is not pronounced as in yarn. If you want an "i" as in yarn you need something like "iato". In my personal opinion (not at all an expert on languages) an English speaker should work mostly on "gn" and "gl" since in Italian they form a single sound together while English speaking people split the sounds in two parts like "g-n".

qalmakka 5y ago
I think you're mistaken about the 'y' part; what the author is trying to convey is that [i] in Italian is both the vowel /i/ and the consonant /j/ depending on the context. /j/ is typically rendered in English using [y] (but not always). Pietà is definitely /pje'ta/, not /pie'ta/, like the [i] in ieri /'jeri/ - at least that's how I've always pronounced that. It would have been better if Italian just kept using the letter [j] - it was invented by an Italian guy to solve this kind of ambiguity after all.
- olau 5y ago
  I don't think the person is mistaken, I think people pronounce it in different ways depending on where they come from. The three examples here does not seem to be pronounced like ieri: https://forvo.com/word/piet%C3%A0/ https://forvo.com/word/piet%C3%A0/ Perchance you're speaking a dialect? Happens to all of us. :) Not a native speaker and my Italian is terrible, but I've always loved the Italian i vowels. They are so clear and distinct.
  - riffraff 5y ago
    As a native, I do agree with the original (pietà is not pjetà). So maybe it is a regional pronunciation issue. Or maybe it's like someone who can feel that the proper plural of "figlio" (figli) would have a long "i" (figlî, in some old books) even if it's not really there anymore.
    - qalmakka 5y ago
      Italian phonology is clear - approximants like /j/ and /w/ always appear in diphthongs, unless in very rare occurrences; i.e. ài, èi, éi, òi, ói, ùi; àu, èu, éu -> /aj/, /εj/, /ej/, /ɔj/, /oj/, /uj/; /aw/, / εw/, /ew/. For instance, piede is /'pjede/, while tuorlo is /'tworlo/. IPA in Italian dictionaries is very rare, but the only examples I found specify /'pjeta/. Italian pronunciation has never been standardized by anyone, so pronunciation may vary, but unless my knowledge of phonology is completely wrong there's an appoximant in "pietà", like in pieno /'pjeno/ and piano /'pjano/. To avoid i to switch to /j/ there needs to be a "iato", which splits words onto two separate syllables. For instance, mormorio is /mormo'rio/, not /mormo'rjo/. In this case, the word gets split in syllables as mor-mo-RI-o, and the i doesn't become an approximant. Pietà is pie-TÀ, not pi-e-TÀ, because the ie is in a diphthong, so it's /je/.
- ithkuil 5y ago
  Gian Giorgio Trissino,. 1524 formalized the distinction. Prior to that it was just two variant shapes of the same letter. I saw it still being used on some street signs. Jonio, Jesolo, ...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
1_player 5y ago
The closest phonetic approximation to "gn" is the "ny" in canyon, and the approximation to "gl" is the double l in billion.
jaclaz 5y ago
>... an English speaker should work mostly on ... ... and on double consonants (like BTW a number of Italians, which regional pronounce can be quite opposite, as an example venetians making any double single and romans making most single doubles) ... The "j" was once used in writing too, called "i consonantica" when it is followed by a vowel, it remained in historical names like Jacopo but became a "normal" i in - say - acciaio (that was once written acciajo).