3 ms·

> Residents and motorists will notice smoke in the area ... There is currently no threat to the community That's certainly a bold statement. Conventional Li-I

> Residents and motorists will notice smoke in the area ... There is currently no threat to the community That's certainly a bold statement. Conventional Li-Ion chemistries are quite toxic.

Retric 5y ago
That’s the all clear after an alert for the local area asking people to stay indoors to avoid toxic smoke, so presumably things where worse and have now improved. Concentration makes the poison and the threshold for noticing smoke is very low. Assuming significant distance from a one off event this could be noticeable but effectively harmless right now.
- chroem- 5y ago
  The 450 MWh plant is composed out of 210 battery units [1], so a little over 2 MWh just went up in smoke. Sources say that commercial chemistries emit between 20 and 200mg of hydrogen fluoride gas per watt hour. [2] At 100mg/Wh, the pack would have released a fifth of a metric ton of hydrogen fluoride gas onto the neighboring roadway over the course of the fire. You be the judge whether or not that warrants precautions. Edit: a second pack is on fire, so we're approaching half a metric ton of HF gas now [1] https://victorianbigbattery.com.au/ https://victorianbigbattery.com.au/ [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09784-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09784-z
  - Retric 5y ago
    Not would have, could have released up to 200mg/Wh depending on chemistry, but nothing says 100% of the battery burned. Anyway, hydrogen fluoride is nasty but well studied. The 5 minute LC 50 for rats was 5120mg/m3 and at 6 hours of exposure 156mg/m3 is lethal for rats. It demonstrates a rapid fall off in toxicity rather than direct bioaccumulation because the damage is from acidification of water in the lungs. https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/16/077/16077051.pdf https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/... Humans exposed to 23mg/m3 notice lung irritation, but short term exposure is considered low risk. By comparison even a short distance from a 2 day fire in 5km/h winds your quickly talking sub 0.1mg/m3. It’s still toxic just not acutely dangerous from lung acidification.
  - canadianfella 5y ago
    > You be the judge whether or not that warrants precautions. You seem to want to say something. What is your judgement?
  - bjowen 5y ago
    .. assuming that the laptop batteries tested in the paper are a suitable comparison. Tesla’s cells are at least similar LFP chemistry these days, and the documentation [0] lists the same gases in the case of a fire. But this is not an enclosed space - it’s a fenced-off high voltage switchyard in a paddock more than a kilometre from the nearest dwelling, and this battery hasn’t instantaneously emitted all its contents all at once. It’s also quite a windy and rainy week, which affects how serious a practical hazard this is. The emergency services have notified [1] people within 10km to keep the windows closed nevertheless. Many more of good people of Geelong have a gigantic oil refinery on their doorstep[2], which is a far greater concern if you want to get exercised about HF-related accidents[3]. [0] https://www.gnr8nrg.com.au/images/resources/batteries/tesla/lithium-ion-battery-emergency-response-guide.pdf https://www.gnr8nrg.com.au/images/resources/batteries/tesla/... [1] https://www.emergency.vic.gov.au/respond/#!/warning/17269/moreinfo https://www.emergency.vic.gov.au/respond/#!/warning/17269/mo... [2] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Shell+Refinery+Corio,+Corio+VIC+3214/@-38.0766628,144.3825149 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Shell+Refinery+Corio,+Cori... [3] https://www.csb.gov/philadelphia-energy-solutions-pes-refinery-fire-and-explosions-/ https://www.csb.gov/philadelphia-energy-solutions-pes-refine...
- bjowen 5y ago
  There’s almost no population within a kilometre of the site - it’s on the absolute rural edge of a city the size of Reno or Aachen, in a switchyard on the main power transmission lines. There’s maybe a handful of people and a kangaroo that’d be in harm’s way, and it’s been a cold and windy week - they’d probably not mind having the windows closed.

> Residents and motorists will notice smoke in the area ... There is currently no threat to the community That's certainly a bold statement. Conventional Li-Ion chemistries are quite toxic.

Retric 5y ago

That’s the all clear after an alert for the local area asking people to stay indoors to avoid toxic smoke, so presumably things where worse and have now improved. Concentration makes the poison and the threshold for noticing smoke is very low. Assuming significant distance from a one off event this could be noticeable but effectively harmless right now.

chroem- 5y ago
The 450 MWh plant is composed out of 210 battery units [1], so a little over 2 MWh just went up in smoke. Sources say that commercial chemistries emit between 20 and 200mg of hydrogen fluoride gas per watt hour. [2] At 100mg/Wh, the pack would have released a fifth of a metric ton of hydrogen fluoride gas onto the neighboring roadway over the course of the fire. You be the judge whether or not that warrants precautions. Edit: a second pack is on fire, so we're approaching half a metric ton of HF gas now [1] https://victorianbigbattery.com.au/ https://victorianbigbattery.com.au/ [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09784-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09784-z
- Retric 5y ago
  Not would have, could have released up to 200mg/Wh depending on chemistry, but nothing says 100% of the battery burned. Anyway, hydrogen fluoride is nasty but well studied. The 5 minute LC 50 for rats was 5120mg/m3 and at 6 hours of exposure 156mg/m3 is lethal for rats. It demonstrates a rapid fall off in toxicity rather than direct bioaccumulation because the damage is from acidification of water in the lungs. https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/16/077/16077051.pdf https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/... Humans exposed to 23mg/m3 notice lung irritation, but short term exposure is considered low risk. By comparison even a short distance from a 2 day fire in 5km/h winds your quickly talking sub 0.1mg/m3. It’s still toxic just not acutely dangerous from lung acidification.
- canadianfella 5y ago
  > You be the judge whether or not that warrants precautions. You seem to want to say something. What is your judgement?
- bjowen 5y ago
  .. assuming that the laptop batteries tested in the paper are a suitable comparison. Tesla’s cells are at least similar LFP chemistry these days, and the documentation [0] lists the same gases in the case of a fire. But this is not an enclosed space - it’s a fenced-off high voltage switchyard in a paddock more than a kilometre from the nearest dwelling, and this battery hasn’t instantaneously emitted all its contents all at once. It’s also quite a windy and rainy week, which affects how serious a practical hazard this is. The emergency services have notified [1] people within 10km to keep the windows closed nevertheless. Many more of good people of Geelong have a gigantic oil refinery on their doorstep[2], which is a far greater concern if you want to get exercised about HF-related accidents[3]. [0] https://www.gnr8nrg.com.au/images/resources/batteries/tesla/lithium-ion-battery-emergency-response-guide.pdf https://www.gnr8nrg.com.au/images/resources/batteries/tesla/... [1] https://www.emergency.vic.gov.au/respond/#!/warning/17269/moreinfo https://www.emergency.vic.gov.au/respond/#!/warning/17269/mo... [2] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Shell+Refinery+Corio,+Corio+VIC+3214/@-38.0766628,144.3825149 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Shell+Refinery+Corio,+Cori... [3] https://www.csb.gov/philadelphia-energy-solutions-pes-refinery-fire-and-explosions-/ https://www.csb.gov/philadelphia-energy-solutions-pes-refine...
bjowen 5y ago
There’s almost no population within a kilometre of the site - it’s on the absolute rural edge of a city the size of Reno or Aachen, in a switchyard on the main power transmission lines. There’s maybe a handful of people and a kangaroo that’d be in harm’s way, and it’s been a cold and windy week - they’d probably not mind having the windows closed.