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If we assume RoC is the rightful government for China as a whole, it stands to reason that they are also the rightful owner of Hong Kong, no? And since one is

If we assume RoC is the rightful government for China as a whole, it stands to reason that they are also the rightful owner of Hong Kong, no? And since one is a democratic government and the other is a totalitarian state actively comiting genocide, then I know whom I would want as my government.

emodendroket 5y ago
But the question of whom you would want has nothing to do with who is the "rightful owner" or the one who enjoys the support of the people they claim to govern.
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  "rightful owner" is a funny ol' concept. Basically, whichever power is able to hold it at the time is essentially the "rightful owner". I can't seem to get past this nihilism as the correct answer.
- GauntletWizard 5y ago
  There are two theories of government: One says that they rule by divine right, the other says that they rule by the consent of the governed. One does not recognize human rights, the other does. I know which one I want to live under; I hope that those that argue the other never have the misfortune of experiencing their wish.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    Let’s run with the second. Do you actually think the majority of the people who live in the PRC wish for their government to be overthrown? It is obvious to me that that is not the case.
    - MathYouF 5y ago
      If only there was a mechanism by which one could find out which leaders the people would like to be governed by.
      - emodendroket 5y ago
        I think it's pretty foolish to assume that just because a government is not elected means it doesn't enjoy substantial support, especially in the face of a galvanizing force like a foreign country seeking to destabilize it. Polling in China has some obvious limitations but would suggest high levels of satisfaction. https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/913650298/as-u-s-views-of-china-grow-more-negative-chinese-support-for-their-government-ri https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/913650298/as-u-s-views-of-chi...
        MathYouF 5y ago
        Your chatty, polite tone doesn't compensate for or conceal the fact that you're trying to provide justification for why a government that has suspended the democratic rights of its citizenry to choose its own government and their rights to freedom of expression isn't that bad. What exactly is the aim of your litany of past comments in support of the CCP? Am I to believe you just genuinely think democracy and individual liberties are not the preferred method of governance by most people around the world, and that you think the world is better off without them being campaigned for? Under which form of government do you currently find yourself?
        emodendroket 5y ago
        My polite tone is not meant to compensate for or conceal anything. Am I supposed to be rude and combative, especially in an environment where I'm well aware that my mostly-sympathetic view of China is unpopular? The aim of my "litany of past comments in support of the CCP" (how far are you digging? I post about all kinds of topics) is just sharing my opinion and the facts as I see them. In particular, I think our (i.e., the US, to answer your other personal questions) sudden turn on China is unwise. I think it's probably true that many or most people like democracy and individual liberties, but I think it's equally true that these are not the sole criteria by which they decide which government they support. If they were, and that meant that China were ripe for regime change, Singapore would only be a little behind. I think the world is better off without them being "campaigned for" if "campaigning for" is instituting a big global chess game where we try to destabilize certain governments (and an honest accounting of those rarely ends up favoring one side as purely as we'd like to flatter ourselves).

emodendroket 5y ago

But the question of whom you would want has nothing to do with who is the "rightful owner" or the one who enjoys the support of the people they claim to govern.

BLKNSLVR 5y ago
"rightful owner" is a funny ol' concept. Basically, whichever power is able to hold it at the time is essentially the "rightful owner". I can't seem to get past this nihilism as the correct answer.
GauntletWizard 5y ago
There are two theories of government: One says that they rule by divine right, the other says that they rule by the consent of the governed. One does not recognize human rights, the other does. I know which one I want to live under; I hope that those that argue the other never have the misfortune of experiencing their wish.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Let’s run with the second. Do you actually think the majority of the people who live in the PRC wish for their government to be overthrown? It is obvious to me that that is not the case.
  - MathYouF 5y ago
    If only there was a mechanism by which one could find out which leaders the people would like to be governed by.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      I think it's pretty foolish to assume that just because a government is not elected means it doesn't enjoy substantial support, especially in the face of a galvanizing force like a foreign country seeking to destabilize it. Polling in China has some obvious limitations but would suggest high levels of satisfaction. https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/913650298/as-u-s-views-of-china-grow-more-negative-chinese-support-for-their-government-ri https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/913650298/as-u-s-views-of-chi...
      - MathYouF 5y ago
        Your chatty, polite tone doesn't compensate for or conceal the fact that you're trying to provide justification for why a government that has suspended the democratic rights of its citizenry to choose its own government and their rights to freedom of expression isn't that bad. What exactly is the aim of your litany of past comments in support of the CCP? Am I to believe you just genuinely think democracy and individual liberties are not the preferred method of governance by most people around the world, and that you think the world is better off without them being campaigned for? Under which form of government do you currently find yourself?
        emodendroket 5y ago
        My polite tone is not meant to compensate for or conceal anything. Am I supposed to be rude and combative, especially in an environment where I'm well aware that my mostly-sympathetic view of China is unpopular? The aim of my "litany of past comments in support of the CCP" (how far are you digging? I post about all kinds of topics) is just sharing my opinion and the facts as I see them. In particular, I think our (i.e., the US, to answer your other personal questions) sudden turn on China is unwise. I think it's probably true that many or most people like democracy and individual liberties, but I think it's equally true that these are not the sole criteria by which they decide which government they support. If they were, and that meant that China were ripe for regime change, Singapore would only be a little behind. I think the world is better off without them being "campaigned for" if "campaigning for" is instituting a big global chess game where we try to destabilize certain governments (and an honest accounting of those rarely ends up favoring one side as purely as we'd like to flatter ourselves).