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There absolutely is evidence that social skills training can help individuals with Autism, and a big part of that training requires real social interactions to

There absolutely is evidence that social skills training can help individuals with Autism, and a big part of that training requires real social interactions to practice while slowly building up skills. Additionally, social anxiety is often comorbid with ASD, so exposure therapy for social anxiety can also be an important part of treatment. The research for ASD is less established than for depressive or anxiety disorders, but CBT with some Autism-specific alterations looks quite promising. This book is a good treatment on the topic IMO: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42766868-cognitive-behavioral-therapy-for-adults-with-autism-spectrum-disorder-s https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42766868-cognitive-behav... Some amount of exposure to sunlight is important, I do not think anyone would seriously suggest light skinned people don't need exposure to the sun. Further, the way that light skinned people manage exposure is not pure avoidance, it often centers around adaptations like proper clothing, sunscreen, and umbrellas. Mental health is a million times more nuanced than that even, and yet people treat it like our only two choices are to stay inside or stand naked in the sun all day. Again, no one is saying that someone with ASD has to have the same amount of social interaction as a typical extrovert or can't take some personal time if they are having a bad week. The issue is when avoidance of social interaction becomes the default response, when it starts to impact their life in lasting ways. It's actually a harmful misconception that people with ASD don't want to be social or have many relationships. People are different of course, but more often than not someone with Autism will be getting less socialization than they personally need, due to some combination of rejection and anxiety. An alcoholic would spend their life drunk if they were to live in a way "consonant with how their body and mind works", but it isn't what they actually want. At this point I think you are just intentionally misreading what I write. Obviously Obesity and Autism are not directly similar. What is similar is that encouraging a fat person to eat what they want will slowly degrade their health over time, even if each individual instance may not seem like a big deal, just as lack of social interaction will negatively impact the health of those with ASD. And in both cases you don't want to be a jerk about it, but saying it is fine for them to live how they want is absolutely not the right call. I'll remind you that HN guidelines also suggest you should interpret comments charitably, yet you keep assuming I'm making bizarre comparisons that I'm not. Should I accuse you of saying that skin cancer is similar to Autism? I'm also not sure why you keep splitting up sentences that were grouped together. I have seen on multiple occasions someone get left out of group activities because they constantly tried to center everything around their special interest. That sentence was directly grouped with the conversation about special interests taking too much precedence so that it has a negative impact on the person. The problem is not the obsession directly, but when there is an inability to control it when necessary. Any good friend group will take part in each other's hobbies, it is part of the give and take, and it is something that should be taught to people with ASD. It is counterproductive to tell them it is okay to make everything about them, because 9 times out of 10 the friends don't actually think it is okay, and the person will end up without an invite in the future. Do you seriously not understand that happiness is not a binary variable? Would you suggest that it is reasonable for someone with Epilepsy who is happy with their life to not get treatment for seizures? People in general should be trying to better themselves throughout life, regardless of what diseases they may or may not have. I have no idea why some people have decided to flip the narrative to be that even disabled people shouldn't try to improve themselves if they can. Perhaps the disconnect is just that you think society is trying to force people with ASD to be social, but that really isn't the issue here. People with ASD overwhelmingly wish they had more friends and better relationships. Entrenching a "fuck everybody people suck" attitude as a defense mechanism is the exact wrong way to handle it, and that is the underlying message in a lot of these neurodivergent groups. I'm also curious why you don't seem to even yield the deafness point, if you think it is just about the statistics for efficacy of treatment. There is not a cure all for Autism, but there absolutely are helpful mitigation strategies supported by evidence, as I mentioned above. For many deaf children there is a cure, which is refused, yet you seem to be arguing that it isn't necessarily better for them to be able to hear. You seem to be arguing that deafness and learning disabilities aren't impairments at all so long as the person has an above average life, which is so painfully one dimensional I'm not sure what else to say to you.

zepto 5y ago
> There absolutely is evidence that social skills training can help individuals with Autism, and a big part of that training requires real social interactions to practice while slowly building up skills. True, but also nothing whatsoever to do with what you actually said, which were general statements about whether autistic people should be encouraged to compromise with friends and family or engage more socially. > Additionally, social anxiety is often comorbid with ASD, so exposure therapy for social anxiety can also be an important part of treatment. Yes, and can be harmful and traumatizing if it’s not carefully managed. > The research for ASD is less established.. It’s not established and it’s also not what you said. You said nothing about treatment plans. You said it was harmful to encourage autistic people not to engage socially. Encouraging people to engage socially is not treatment. > …can't take some personal time if they are having a bad week. The issue is when avoidance of social interaction becomes the default response, when it starts to impact their life in lasting ways. This is just a rehash - you are assuming that the lasting impacts are bad relative to just staying in the situation. This is far from obvious. It’s entirely possible that the situation simply isn’t going to accommodate the person and they will burn out if they don’t withdraw. This is a widely reported phenomenon. > It's actually a harmful misconception that people with ASD don't want to be social or have many relationships. People are different of course, but more often than not someone with Autism will be getting less socialization than they personally need, due to some combination of rejection and anxiety. Yes, I’m glad you understand this, but what matters is of course the quality of relationships and whether they meet the person’s needs. Blanket advice to not withdraw is obviously harmful if someone is not in a workplace or relationships that give them support. > At this point I think you are just intentionally misreading what I write No, I’m responding to what you wrote as it appears. You are complaining about blanket advice telling autistic people that it’s ok to withdraw, live as they are etc. However you simply repeat the same mistake, by claiming that the only thing that can help is more social engagement and treatment. This is simply not true. Many autistic people have found self-acceptance and exploration of their differences to be profoundly helpful. > At this point I think you are just intentionally misreading what I write. This is an uncharitable personal attack. A charitable alternative would be to consider that your points are not coming across as clearly as you think they are. > Obviously Obesity and Autism are not directly similar. What is similar is that encouraging a fat person to eat what they want will slowly degrade their health over time, even if each individual instance may not seem like a big deal, just as lack of social interaction will negatively impact the health of those with ASD. The problem with your analogy is that this isn’t actually true. Less social interaction can definitely help, and more can definitely be harmful. Not in every case, but that’s the point - the analogy simply isn’t there. Recommending a treatment or more social engagement isn’t always a bad suggestion. But it is definitely wrong to assume it is the right thing for a given individual at a given point in time. It is also incorrect to assume that withdrawal is always wrong. In this way, obesity is nothing like autism. > Would you suggest that it is reasonable for someone with Epilepsy who is happy with their life to not get treatment for seizures? Doctors have literally make this recommendation to people with epilepsy for years. Epilepsy drugs have side effects, as does surgery. If people can manage their epilepsy without them it is often better for them to do so. > People in general should be trying to better themselves throughout life If someone is happy, why ‘should’ they be trying to better themselves? Even if they want to better themselves, why do you assume you know what will make their life better? There are plenty of people who spend a lot of time doing things other than socializing that make their life better, whether they are autistic or not. > I have no idea why some people have decided to flip the narrative to be that even disabled people shouldn't try to improve themselves if they can. Who are you taking about? This is a non-sequitur that has nothing to do with anything I have said. I’m curious what made you write this. Who are these people you are talking about? > Perhaps the disconnect is just that you think society is trying to force people with ASD to be social Did I say that somewhere? > but that really isn't the issue here. It seems like you read something in that I didn’t write. > People with ASD overwhelmingly wish they had more friends and better relationships. True, but as mentioned earlier, simply recommending that they don’t withdraw can be counterproductive. > Entrenching a "fuck everybody people suck" attitude as a defense mechanism is the exact wrong way to handle it, and that is the underlying message in a lot of these neurodivergent groups. What has this got to do with our conversation? What groups? How do you know what this underlying message is? > I'm also curious why you don't seem to even yield the deafness point, What deafness point exactly do you think I might yield? Deafness has been used in various ways in this conversation. > if you think it is just about the statistics for efficacy of treatment. I don’t, but the statistics matter for evaluating the relevance of treatment as a recommendation. > There is not a cure all for Autism, This is an important acknowledgement. > but there absolutely are helpful mitigation strategies supported by evidence, as I mentioned above. Yes, certain strategies which help some people according to limited evidence. Nothing which supports discouraging anything other than applying those strategies. At any given point, adopting those strategies isn’t necessarily what a person needs to do. There are autistic people who have many friends, and are highly adept at social skill who nevertheless need to withdraw for long periods of time. > For many deaf children there is a cure, which is refused, Is it common for this cure to be refused? > yet you seem to be arguing that it isn't necessarily better for them to be able to hear. I have made no such argument. > You seem to be arguing that deafness and learning disabilities aren't impairments at all so long as the person has an above average life, I have made no such argument. I do claim that people with disabilities can be happy without needing to fix their disabilities and that that there is no blanket argument that they ‘should’. > which is so painfully one dimensional I'm not sure what else to say to you. I think you have misunderstood my position.

zepto 5y ago

> There absolutely is evidence that social skills training can help individuals with Autism, and a big part of that training requires real social interactions to practice while slowly building up skills. True, but also nothing whatsoever to do with what you actually said, which were general statements about whether autistic people should be encouraged to compromise with friends and family or engage more socially. > Additionally, social anxiety is often comorbid with ASD, so exposure therapy for social anxiety can also be an important part of treatment. Yes, and can be harmful and traumatizing if it’s not carefully managed. > The research for ASD is less established.. It’s not established and it’s also not what you said. You said nothing about treatment plans. You said it was harmful to encourage autistic people not to engage socially. Encouraging people to engage socially is not treatment. > …can't take some personal time if they are having a bad week. The issue is when avoidance of social interaction becomes the default response, when it starts to impact their life in lasting ways. This is just a rehash - you are assuming that the lasting impacts are bad relative to just staying in the situation. This is far from obvious. It’s entirely possible that the situation simply isn’t going to accommodate the person and they will burn out if they don’t withdraw. This is a widely reported phenomenon. > It's actually a harmful misconception that people with ASD don't want to be social or have many relationships. People are different of course, but more often than not someone with Autism will be getting less socialization than they personally need, due to some combination of rejection and anxiety. Yes, I’m glad you understand this, but what matters is of course the quality of relationships and whether they meet the person’s needs. Blanket advice to not withdraw is obviously harmful if someone is not in a workplace or relationships that give them support. > At this point I think you are just intentionally misreading what I write No, I’m responding to what you wrote as it appears. You are complaining about blanket advice telling autistic people that it’s ok to withdraw, live as they are etc. However you simply repeat the same mistake, by claiming that the only thing that can help is more social engagement and treatment. This is simply not true. Many autistic people have found self-acceptance and exploration of their differences to be profoundly helpful. > At this point I think you are just intentionally misreading what I write. This is an uncharitable personal attack. A charitable alternative would be to consider that your points are not coming across as clearly as you think they are. > Obviously Obesity and Autism are not directly similar. What is similar is that encouraging a fat person to eat what they want will slowly degrade their health over time, even if each individual instance may not seem like a big deal, just as lack of social interaction will negatively impact the health of those with ASD. The problem with your analogy is that this isn’t actually true. Less social interaction can definitely help, and more can definitely be harmful. Not in every case, but that’s the point - the analogy simply isn’t there. Recommending a treatment or more social engagement isn’t always a bad suggestion. But it is definitely wrong to assume it is the right thing for a given individual at a given point in time. It is also incorrect to assume that withdrawal is always wrong. In this way, obesity is nothing like autism. > Would you suggest that it is reasonable for someone with Epilepsy who is happy with their life to not get treatment for seizures? Doctors have literally make this recommendation to people with epilepsy for years. Epilepsy drugs have side effects, as does surgery. If people can manage their epilepsy without them it is often better for them to do so. > People in general should be trying to better themselves throughout life If someone is happy, why ‘should’ they be trying to better themselves? Even if they want to better themselves, why do you assume you know what will make their life better? There are plenty of people who spend a lot of time doing things other than socializing that make their life better, whether they are autistic or not. > I have no idea why some people have decided to flip the narrative to be that even disabled people shouldn't try to improve themselves if they can. Who are you taking about? This is a non-sequitur that has nothing to do with anything I have said. I’m curious what made you write this. Who are these people you are talking about? > Perhaps the disconnect is just that you think society is trying to force people with ASD to be social Did I say that somewhere? > but that really isn't the issue here. It seems like you read something in that I didn’t write. > People with ASD overwhelmingly wish they had more friends and better relationships. True, but as mentioned earlier, simply recommending that they don’t withdraw can be counterproductive. > Entrenching a "fuck everybody people suck" attitude as a defense mechanism is the exact wrong way to handle it, and that is the underlying message in a lot of these neurodivergent groups. What has this got to do with our conversation? What groups? How do you know what this underlying message is? > I'm also curious why you don't seem to even yield the deafness point, What deafness point exactly do you think I might yield? Deafness has been used in various ways in this conversation. > if you think it is just about the statistics for efficacy of treatment. I don’t, but the statistics matter for evaluating the relevance of treatment as a recommendation. > There is not a cure all for Autism, This is an important acknowledgement. > but there absolutely are helpful mitigation strategies supported by evidence, as I mentioned above. Yes, certain strategies which help some people according to limited evidence. Nothing which supports discouraging anything other than applying those strategies. At any given point, adopting those strategies isn’t necessarily what a person needs to do. There are autistic people who have many friends, and are highly adept at social skill who nevertheless need to withdraw for long periods of time. > For many deaf children there is a cure, which is refused, Is it common for this cure to be refused? > yet you seem to be arguing that it isn't necessarily better for them to be able to hear. I have made no such argument. > You seem to be arguing that deafness and learning disabilities aren't impairments at all so long as the person has an above average life, I have made no such argument. I do claim that people with disabilities can be happy without needing to fix their disabilities and that that there is no blanket argument that they ‘should’. > which is so painfully one dimensional I'm not sure what else to say to you. I think you have misunderstood my position.