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> This is true across many disorders. To treat an anxiety issue you slowly introduce increasing amounts of the trigger to the person. There is no evidence that

by zepto 5y ago

> This is true across many disorders. To treat an anxiety issue you slowly introduce increasing amounts of the trigger to the person. There is no evidence that autism is like anxiety or can be ‘treated’ with exposure therapy. We don’t encourage people with light skin to increasingly expose themselves to sunlight. > You don't tell them it's okay to spend their life avoiding it. Why not? There is a very wide range of possible lifestyles and occupations. Why shouldn’t someone choose to spend their life in a way that is consonant with the way their mind and body works? We encourage light skinned people to carefully manage their sun exposure because their skin is sensitive to it. What is different about encouraging autistic people to limit their social exposure? > There are many degrees to "harming health", what I am referring to harms health in a similar way as encouraging an obese person to eat whatever they want. It's a slow burn. There is no similarity with obesity at all. It’s not an analogy or model for autism. > Failure to keep on top of cleanliness, appointments, groceries, etc. is one type of example. This is a misattribution of cause. Not doing these things is an observed effect, not a cause. What has ‘failed’? If you can identify that then we can reason about what might be helpful. > Failure to compromise with friends which over time degrades relationships is another. See above - you are misattributing cause. Perhaps the issue is not having the right friends. Compromising in order to keep unhealthy relationships going is generally bad for everyone. > Not fixing something that is wrong because you are otherwise happy is exactly the fallacy I am talking about. How do you reason that something wrong with a persons if they are happy other than by comparison with other people? Wrongness in this instance is just an attribute in the mind of someone making such a comparison. > It's not just some theoretical world where the person was never deaf, because for a number of children that grow up deaf they did not actually have to! What proportion of children grow up deaf who did not have to? Are you implying that people are autistic who don’t have to be? > a deaf person being happier than a hearing person does not mean deafness isn't an impairment for them Impairment relative to whom? > in the same way that someone with a learning disability performing better in school than a typical child doesn't mean the LD doesn't impair them. Impairment relative to whom? “Billie Eilish suffers a physiological impairment which prevents her from playing basketball in the MBA. Fortunately she has been able to accommodate this impairment by singing instead. Someone suggested that gradual and increasing exposure to basketball might help, but she is glad she chose to just avoid basketball courts in general.” > but rather that they were not helped because of a sentiment similar to what you are pushing Let’s refrain from making accusations. It’s against HN guidelines. > If you literally decline a treatment that would improve your life (or even worse do so for your child!) because you've somehow deluded yourself into thinking your disability is good for you, that's very obviously a bad thing, You can’t tell in advance whether a treatment will improve someone’s life. You also can’t know if a disability is good for someone. To call this a delusion is to claim you understand someone’s life better than they do. If we had strong signal about autism treatments doing so in general, it would be obvious. We don’t have a consensus scientific model of what autism even is, let alone treatments that predictably improve an arbitrary person’s life. > and that is exactly what this overly prideful attitude breeds, as can be seen on full display already with deaf culture. Or it could be that we just don’t have good treatments for autism and that autistic people can also live better lives by not attempting to fix themselves. > In a world where there is absolutely nothing we could do about deafness, sure let deaf people think they have some sort of secret advantage over all us hearing normies. I refer you to the earlier question - what proportion of deaf people are deaf because they refused treatment? > But in reality there are things we can do, How do you know they are worth it? > so we should be encouraging people to get help. I am curious to know whether you have any statistics on the kinds of help available and the outcomes. Clearly without such information this is an incorrect statement.

caddemon 5y ago
There absolutely is evidence that social skills training can help individuals with Autism, and a big part of that training requires real social interactions to practice while slowly building up skills. Additionally, social anxiety is often comorbid with ASD, so exposure therapy for social anxiety can also be an important part of treatment. The research for ASD is less established than for depressive or anxiety disorders, but CBT with some Autism-specific alterations looks quite promising. This book is a good treatment on the topic IMO: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42766868-cognitive-behavioral-therapy-for-adults-with-autism-spectrum-disorder-s https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42766868-cognitive-behav... Some amount of exposure to sunlight is important, I do not think anyone would seriously suggest light skinned people don't need exposure to the sun. Further, the way that light skinned people manage exposure is not pure avoidance, it often centers around adaptations like proper clothing, sunscreen, and umbrellas. Mental health is a million times more nuanced than that even, and yet people treat it like our only two choices are to stay inside or stand naked in the sun all day. Again, no one is saying that someone with ASD has to have the same amount of social interaction as a typical extrovert or can't take some personal time if they are having a bad week. The issue is when avoidance of social interaction becomes the default response, when it starts to impact their life in lasting ways. It's actually a harmful misconception that people with ASD don't want to be social or have many relationships. People are different of course, but more often than not someone with Autism will be getting less socialization than they personally need, due to some combination of rejection and anxiety. An alcoholic would spend their life drunk if they were to live in a way "consonant with how their body and mind works", but it isn't what they actually want. At this point I think you are just intentionally misreading what I write. Obviously Obesity and Autism are not directly similar. What is similar is that encouraging a fat person to eat what they want will slowly degrade their health over time, even if each individual instance may not seem like a big deal, just as lack of social interaction will negatively impact the health of those with ASD. And in both cases you don't want to be a jerk about it, but saying it is fine for them to live how they want is absolutely not the right call. I'll remind you that HN guidelines also suggest you should interpret comments charitably, yet you keep assuming I'm making bizarre comparisons that I'm not. Should I accuse you of saying that skin cancer is similar to Autism? I'm also not sure why you keep splitting up sentences that were grouped together. I have seen on multiple occasions someone get left out of group activities because they constantly tried to center everything around their special interest. That sentence was directly grouped with the conversation about special interests taking too much precedence so that it has a negative impact on the person. The problem is not the obsession directly, but when there is an inability to control it when necessary. Any good friend group will take part in each other's hobbies, it is part of the give and take, and it is something that should be taught to people with ASD. It is counterproductive to tell them it is okay to make everything about them, because 9 times out of 10 the friends don't actually think it is okay, and the person will end up without an invite in the future. Do you seriously not understand that happiness is not a binary variable? Would you suggest that it is reasonable for someone with Epilepsy who is happy with their life to not get treatment for seizures? People in general should be trying to better themselves throughout life, regardless of what diseases they may or may not have. I have no idea why some people have decided to flip the narrative to be that even disabled people shouldn't try to improve themselves if they can. Perhaps the disconnect is just that you think society is trying to force people with ASD to be social, but that really isn't the issue here. People with ASD overwhelmingly wish they had more friends and better relationships. Entrenching a "fuck everybody people suck" attitude as a defense mechanism is the exact wrong way to handle it, and that is the underlying message in a lot of these neurodivergent groups. I'm also curious why you don't seem to even yield the deafness point, if you think it is just about the statistics for efficacy of treatment. There is not a cure all for Autism, but there absolutely are helpful mitigation strategies supported by evidence, as I mentioned above. For many deaf children there is a cure, which is refused, yet you seem to be arguing that it isn't necessarily better for them to be able to hear. You seem to be arguing that deafness and learning disabilities aren't impairments at all so long as the person has an above average life, which is so painfully one dimensional I'm not sure what else to say to you.

by zepto 5y ago

caddemon 5y ago

There absolutely is evidence that social skills training can help individuals with Autism, and a big part of that training requires real social interactions to practice while slowly building up skills. Additionally, social anxiety is often comorbid with ASD, so exposure therapy for social anxiety can also be an important part of treatment. The research for ASD is less established than for depressive or anxiety disorders, but CBT with some Autism-specific alterations looks quite promising. This book is a good treatment on the topic IMO: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42766868-cognitive-behavioral-therapy-for-adults-with-autism-spectrum-disorder-s https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42766868-cognitive-behav... Some amount of exposure to sunlight is important, I do not think anyone would seriously suggest light skinned people don't need exposure to the sun. Further, the way that light skinned people manage exposure is not pure avoidance, it often centers around adaptations like proper clothing, sunscreen, and umbrellas. Mental health is a million times more nuanced than that even, and yet people treat it like our only two choices are to stay inside or stand naked in the sun all day. Again, no one is saying that someone with ASD has to have the same amount of social interaction as a typical extrovert or can't take some personal time if they are having a bad week. The issue is when avoidance of social interaction becomes the default response, when it starts to impact their life in lasting ways. It's actually a harmful misconception that people with ASD don't want to be social or have many relationships. People are different of course, but more often than not someone with Autism will be getting less socialization than they personally need, due to some combination of rejection and anxiety. An alcoholic would spend their life drunk if they were to live in a way "consonant with how their body and mind works", but it isn't what they actually want. At this point I think you are just intentionally misreading what I write. Obviously Obesity and Autism are not directly similar. What is similar is that encouraging a fat person to eat what they want will slowly degrade their health over time, even if each individual instance may not seem like a big deal, just as lack of social interaction will negatively impact the health of those with ASD. And in both cases you don't want to be a jerk about it, but saying it is fine for them to live how they want is absolutely not the right call. I'll remind you that HN guidelines also suggest you should interpret comments charitably, yet you keep assuming I'm making bizarre comparisons that I'm not. Should I accuse you of saying that skin cancer is similar to Autism? I'm also not sure why you keep splitting up sentences that were grouped together. I have seen on multiple occasions someone get left out of group activities because they constantly tried to center everything around their special interest. That sentence was directly grouped with the conversation about special interests taking too much precedence so that it has a negative impact on the person. The problem is not the obsession directly, but when there is an inability to control it when necessary. Any good friend group will take part in each other's hobbies, it is part of the give and take, and it is something that should be taught to people with ASD. It is counterproductive to tell them it is okay to make everything about them, because 9 times out of 10 the friends don't actually think it is okay, and the person will end up without an invite in the future. Do you seriously not understand that happiness is not a binary variable? Would you suggest that it is reasonable for someone with Epilepsy who is happy with their life to not get treatment for seizures? People in general should be trying to better themselves throughout life, regardless of what diseases they may or may not have. I have no idea why some people have decided to flip the narrative to be that even disabled people shouldn't try to improve themselves if they can. Perhaps the disconnect is just that you think society is trying to force people with ASD to be social, but that really isn't the issue here. People with ASD overwhelmingly wish they had more friends and better relationships. Entrenching a "fuck everybody people suck" attitude as a defense mechanism is the exact wrong way to handle it, and that is the underlying message in a lot of these neurodivergent groups. I'm also curious why you don't seem to even yield the deafness point, if you think it is just about the statistics for efficacy of treatment. There is not a cure all for Autism, but there absolutely are helpful mitigation strategies supported by evidence, as I mentioned above. For many deaf children there is a cure, which is refused, yet you seem to be arguing that it isn't necessarily better for them to be able to hear. You seem to be arguing that deafness and learning disabilities aren't impairments at all so long as the person has an above average life, which is so painfully one dimensional I'm not sure what else to say to you.