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Actively avoiding social interaction even when it is causing the person to stagnate in their career or have family issues. Not needing to apologize for or other

Actively avoiding social interaction even when it is causing the person to stagnate in their career or have family issues. Not needing to apologize for or otherwise address situations where the person said something legitimately mean. Obsessing over something to the point that other basic life functions get ignored. That's a few examples, but the general trend (and this isn't specific to the ASD community, I just read those pages more often) is that any deficit that relates to the disorder can be completely excused even if the person makes no reasonable effort to mitigate. And anything that could possibly be spun as a positive (and in some outlier cases may indeed be a positive) will be excessively praised. This of course doesn't reflect everyone's opinions, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually just a vocal minority. But it's having a broader effect on attitudes inside and outside the community. See also depression pages that push back on things which could legitimately help because none of them are a cure all (e.g. exercise). Edit: to address the hearing loss point you added I was just using an expression. The point is that whether it is good to be deaf is objectively not debatable, nobody (outside of those wrapped up in deaf culture) would want to make themselves deaf. Just because an arbitrary deaf person could be happier than an arbitrary hearing person doesn't mean that the deafness doesn't impair them relative to their own baseline. Ironically, that misconception is something some people with disabilities have had to fight! High IQ individuals with learning disabilities do well enough in school that they are often ignored, despite the fact they could do even better if they were taught how to manage their shortcomings. The comparison has to be made to yourself longitudinally, not to others. When there is no good treatment available there's some argument for the sort of positive attitude you are describing, but it makes no sense when it leads people to avoid help.

zepto 5y ago
> Actively avoiding social interaction even when it is causing the person to stagnate in their career This is not straightforward. Many late diagnosed autistic people have followed your advice and engaged socially to the benefit of their career only to have dramatic collapses when the stress of engagement becomes too much. There is no simple answer to this. > or have family issues. Here there is a real question of what it means to be part of a family. If the autistic person is not receiving empathy and support from the family, then its reasonable for them to disengage. This doesn’t make it good, it just means that socially interacting with one’s family is not automatically good. It seems like this would apply to anyone, regardless of neurodiversity. > Not needing to apologize for or otherwise address situations where the person said something legitimately mean. I don’t agree that “legitimately mean” is an objective concept, but I do agree that it’s unhelpful to encourage anyone not to try to understand why what they have said resulted in someone else experiencing pain, and that it’s usually good to repair relationship damage when possible. That said, there are certainly limits to this, and reciprocity is rarely available to neurodivergent people because of the double empathy problem, so I can see why someone might err on the side of advising someone not to spend too much energy on addressing issues. > Obsessing over something to the point that other basic life functions get ignored. If you are literally talking about someone harming their health through neglect, then I agree that this should not be recommended, however I am not sure this is what you mean. > nobody (outside of those wrapped up in deaf culture) would want to make themselves deaf. Not strictly true (there are certainly tinnitus sufferers who would choose to be deaf if it ended the ringing), but I know what you mean and accept that it’s true enough. But likewise there are many deaf people who would not choose to become hearing, because they are happy with their lives. > Just because an arbitrary deaf person could be happier than an arbitrary hearing person doesn't mean that the deafness doesn't impair them relative to their own baseline. There is no ‘their own baseline’. This is a flawed concept. What you are talking about is a counterfactual world in which they weren’t born deaf. That’s not different comparing the person with what you imagine their life would be like if they weren’t deaf. I.e. no different to comparing them to an arbitrary hearing person. > Ironically, that misconception is something some people with disabilities have had to fight! I don’t see how this is connected. > High IQ individuals with learning disabilities do well enough in school that they are often ignored, despite the fact they could do even better if they were taught how to manage their shortcomings. Mostly true, but you have smuggled in the word ‘shortcomings’ which is the fallacy of affirming the consequent. Who wouldn’t be better off if they weren’t taught appropriate skills? > The comparison has to be made to yourself longitudinally, not to others. See the earlier comment. Comparing yourself to an imaginary different version of yourself is of questionable utility, indeed one could regard this as a kind of delusion. It is certainly not objective. > When there is no good treatment available there's some argument for the sort of positive attitude you are describing, Why only if there is no good treatment available? A positive attitude would seem to be beneficial for anyone. This is strongly supported by research. > but it makes no sense when it leads people to avoid help. True, but this is a tautological straw man which also affirms the consequent. To paraphrase: A positive attitude is harmful when it causes harm. The problem is that you are assuming it does cause harm.
- caddemon 5y ago
  Nobody is saying people should be thrown into the proverbial fire, but the answer is absolutely not to encourage disengagement. This is true across many disorders. To treat an anxiety issue you slowly introduce increasing amounts of the trigger to the person. You don't tell them it's okay to spend their life avoiding it. Some amount of discomfort is necessary. I agree it is a hard balance to strike, as I mentioned in my other comment, but I think much of the current rhetoric surrounding neurodivergence is taking accommodation to the extreme. There are many degrees to "harming health", what I am referring to harms health in a similar way as encouraging an obese person to eat whatever they want. It's a slow burn. Failure to keep on top of cleanliness, appointments, groceries, etc. is one type of example. Failure to compromise with friends which over time degrades relationships is another. Not fixing something that is wrong because you are otherwise happy is exactly the fallacy I am talking about. It's not just some theoretical world where the person was never deaf, because for a number of children that grow up deaf they did not actually have to! Sure you can't disentangle things like "I never would have met my wife if I weren't deaf" - but there are so many random choices like what college you go to where one could say the same thing. It's just a secular version of "God has a plan" type thinking. There is nothing inherent to being deaf that caused any of the person's happiness. The connection is literally just a matter of plugging in different words - a deaf person being happier than a hearing person does not mean deafness isn't an impairment for them, in the same way that someone with a learning disability performing better in school than a typical child doesn't mean the LD doesn't impair them. But that was a misconception among the people that should have been helping those students, for a long time. The point was pretty obviously not that helping those students would help them, but rather that they were not helped because of a sentiment similar to what you are pushing. It's an attitude to be discouraged, yet for some reason there is now this trend in parts of the neurodivergent community to encourage it - I'm a good person/successful/happy/whatever so clearly there isn't anything at all wrong with me. If you literally decline a treatment that would improve your life (or even worse do so for your child!) because you've somehow deluded yourself into thinking your disability is good for you, that's very obviously a bad thing, and that is exactly what this overly prideful attitude breeds, as can be seen on full display already with deaf culture. In a world where there is absolutely nothing we could do about deafness, sure let deaf people think they have some sort of secret advantage over all us hearing normies. But in reality there are things we can do, so we should be encouraging people to get help.

zepto 5y ago

> Actively avoiding social interaction even when it is causing the person to stagnate in their career This is not straightforward. Many late diagnosed autistic people have followed your advice and engaged socially to the benefit of their career only to have dramatic collapses when the stress of engagement becomes too much. There is no simple answer to this. > or have family issues. Here there is a real question of what it means to be part of a family. If the autistic person is not receiving empathy and support from the family, then its reasonable for them to disengage. This doesn’t make it good, it just means that socially interacting with one’s family is not automatically good. It seems like this would apply to anyone, regardless of neurodiversity. > Not needing to apologize for or otherwise address situations where the person said something legitimately mean. I don’t agree that “legitimately mean” is an objective concept, but I do agree that it’s unhelpful to encourage anyone not to try to understand why what they have said resulted in someone else experiencing pain, and that it’s usually good to repair relationship damage when possible. That said, there are certainly limits to this, and reciprocity is rarely available to neurodivergent people because of the double empathy problem, so I can see why someone might err on the side of advising someone not to spend too much energy on addressing issues. > Obsessing over something to the point that other basic life functions get ignored. If you are literally talking about someone harming their health through neglect, then I agree that this should not be recommended, however I am not sure this is what you mean. > nobody (outside of those wrapped up in deaf culture) would want to make themselves deaf. Not strictly true (there are certainly tinnitus sufferers who would choose to be deaf if it ended the ringing), but I know what you mean and accept that it’s true enough. But likewise there are many deaf people who would not choose to become hearing, because they are happy with their lives. > Just because an arbitrary deaf person could be happier than an arbitrary hearing person doesn't mean that the deafness doesn't impair them relative to their own baseline. There is no ‘their own baseline’. This is a flawed concept. What you are talking about is a counterfactual world in which they weren’t born deaf. That’s not different comparing the person with what you imagine their life would be like if they weren’t deaf. I.e. no different to comparing them to an arbitrary hearing person. > Ironically, that misconception is something some people with disabilities have had to fight! I don’t see how this is connected. > High IQ individuals with learning disabilities do well enough in school that they are often ignored, despite the fact they could do even better if they were taught how to manage their shortcomings. Mostly true, but you have smuggled in the word ‘shortcomings’ which is the fallacy of affirming the consequent. Who wouldn’t be better off if they weren’t taught appropriate skills? > The comparison has to be made to yourself longitudinally, not to others. See the earlier comment. Comparing yourself to an imaginary different version of yourself is of questionable utility, indeed one could regard this as a kind of delusion. It is certainly not objective. > When there is no good treatment available there's some argument for the sort of positive attitude you are describing, Why only if there is no good treatment available? A positive attitude would seem to be beneficial for anyone. This is strongly supported by research. > but it makes no sense when it leads people to avoid help. True, but this is a tautological straw man which also affirms the consequent. To paraphrase: A positive attitude is harmful when it causes harm. The problem is that you are assuming it does cause harm.

caddemon 5y ago
Nobody is saying people should be thrown into the proverbial fire, but the answer is absolutely not to encourage disengagement. This is true across many disorders. To treat an anxiety issue you slowly introduce increasing amounts of the trigger to the person. You don't tell them it's okay to spend their life avoiding it. Some amount of discomfort is necessary. I agree it is a hard balance to strike, as I mentioned in my other comment, but I think much of the current rhetoric surrounding neurodivergence is taking accommodation to the extreme. There are many degrees to "harming health", what I am referring to harms health in a similar way as encouraging an obese person to eat whatever they want. It's a slow burn. Failure to keep on top of cleanliness, appointments, groceries, etc. is one type of example. Failure to compromise with friends which over time degrades relationships is another. Not fixing something that is wrong because you are otherwise happy is exactly the fallacy I am talking about. It's not just some theoretical world where the person was never deaf, because for a number of children that grow up deaf they did not actually have to! Sure you can't disentangle things like "I never would have met my wife if I weren't deaf" - but there are so many random choices like what college you go to where one could say the same thing. It's just a secular version of "God has a plan" type thinking. There is nothing inherent to being deaf that caused any of the person's happiness. The connection is literally just a matter of plugging in different words - a deaf person being happier than a hearing person does not mean deafness isn't an impairment for them, in the same way that someone with a learning disability performing better in school than a typical child doesn't mean the LD doesn't impair them. But that was a misconception among the people that should have been helping those students, for a long time. The point was pretty obviously not that helping those students would help them, but rather that they were not helped because of a sentiment similar to what you are pushing. It's an attitude to be discouraged, yet for some reason there is now this trend in parts of the neurodivergent community to encourage it - I'm a good person/successful/happy/whatever so clearly there isn't anything at all wrong with me. If you literally decline a treatment that would improve your life (or even worse do so for your child!) because you've somehow deluded yourself into thinking your disability is good for you, that's very obviously a bad thing, and that is exactly what this overly prideful attitude breeds, as can be seen on full display already with deaf culture. In a world where there is absolutely nothing we could do about deafness, sure let deaf people think they have some sort of secret advantage over all us hearing normies. But in reality there are things we can do, so we should be encouraging people to get help.