6 ms·

As other comments subtly point out, this is a slippery slope. I don't know any folks who are neurodivergent who desire their traits. I have ADHD and while it's

As other comments subtly point out, this is a slippery slope. I don't know any folks who are neurodivergent who desire their traits. I have ADHD and while it's a minor blessing it's mostly a major, horrible curse. There's no amount of drugs, psychology or rehabilitation that will "fix me", to the best of current human knowledge. Sure, it's nice that society might be taking steps to accommodate me, but I'd rather just be a "normal" person. This is in stark contrast to folks for whom drugs, psychology and rehabilitation is proven to fix their problems. Should society be understanding and accommodating of people who don't fit the traditional mold? Of course. But should we pave a path for people to double-down on problematic behavior? I'm not so sure.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
caddemon 5y ago
There definitely are neurodivergent people who think that way, I'm not sure what proportion but I've absolutely seen it IRL in addition to the messaging being rampant online. In some milder cases I can see the argument, but I agree for the most part it gets into dangerous territory - doubling down on bad behavior like you said. It reminds me of how parts of the deaf community will refuse treatments that could improve their ability to hear, as they use strikingly similar arguments to the neurodivergent people that act like they have an advantage. People should be able to make their own choices about medical treatment of course, but I don't think we as a society/culture should be indulging delusions. Not being able to hear is very clearly a bug. With neurodivergence there is such a range of severity it's harder to quantify, but I've seen way too many articles/posts in ASD communities encouraging behavior that clearly shouldn't be encouraged. I think some of this arises from how hard it is to walk the line between accomodations and enabling. Society was so unaccommodating for a long time that I think we are seeing the pendulum swing the other way. It's interesting to talk to therapists that work with children, as it's especially critical to find this balance in that population. It can be a hard thing for the trained professional to determine in some cases, let alone for the parents to handle. Ultimately I think we need to emphasize the fact that everyone has things they could improve on, because that mindset seems to be increasingly lost across the board (see obesity epidemic, "I'm just not a math person", etc.). It's okay to struggle with something but it's an entirely different beast to stop trying because you've decided that society is actually the wrong one and you're perfect the way you are. Doubly so if you proceed to bitch about research on these issues (which others may have much worse!) or impose your beliefs on your children. The latter being a problem in the deaf community, as some treatments work much better at a young age but parents will deny for their children: https://time.com/76154/deaf-culture-cochlear-implants/ https://time.com/76154/deaf-culture-cochlear-implants/ Although it's hard to blame the individuals here too much, because it's compelling to humans for obvious reasons to push the blame off themselves, and when you see 1000s of people online agreeing that you don't have a problem, it's easy to believe that.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- zepto 5y ago
  > Not being able to hear is very clearly a bug. It’s not obvious that the software sense of a problematic deviation between design and implementation is a good model. Deafness clearly causes problems for people, that most people would not wish for. However that doesn’t mean an individual deaf person can’t be happier than an individual hearing person with their overall experience of life, and therefore not experience deafness as an impairment. > way too many articles/posts in ASD communities encouraging behavior that clearly shouldn't be encouraged What kind of behaviors are you talking about?
  - caddemon 5y ago
    Actively avoiding social interaction even when it is causing the person to stagnate in their career or have family issues. Not needing to apologize for or otherwise address situations where the person said something legitimately mean. Obsessing over something to the point that other basic life functions get ignored. That's a few examples, but the general trend (and this isn't specific to the ASD community, I just read those pages more often) is that any deficit that relates to the disorder can be completely excused even if the person makes no reasonable effort to mitigate. And anything that could possibly be spun as a positive (and in some outlier cases may indeed be a positive) will be excessively praised. This of course doesn't reflect everyone's opinions, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually just a vocal minority. But it's having a broader effect on attitudes inside and outside the community. See also depression pages that push back on things which could legitimately help because none of them are a cure all (e.g. exercise). Edit: to address the hearing loss point you added I was just using an expression. The point is that whether it is good to be deaf is objectively not debatable, nobody (outside of those wrapped up in deaf culture) would want to make themselves deaf. Just because an arbitrary deaf person could be happier than an arbitrary hearing person doesn't mean that the deafness doesn't impair them relative to their own baseline. Ironically, that misconception is something some people with disabilities have had to fight! High IQ individuals with learning disabilities do well enough in school that they are often ignored, despite the fact they could do even better if they were taught how to manage their shortcomings. The comparison has to be made to yourself longitudinally, not to others. When there is no good treatment available there's some argument for the sort of positive attitude you are describing, but it makes no sense when it leads people to avoid help.
Pelic4n 5y ago
Welcome to identity politics, where you don't have a crippling mental illness, you're just neurologically diverse, you're not morbidly obese and dying of diabetes, you're just body-size diverse, and so on. Everything about you will be commodified and sold to you as a pre-packaged identity, a very complete offer including lifestyle, medias, community and political opinions. You're not you anymore and you don't need to be, you're your culture, skin color, sexual orientation, gender identity, disabilities, etc. You get your own little bubble, very safe, very inclusive. You just have to play by the rules and keep producing and consuming. I have ADHD too, I have to realize that I'm not a mentally ill individual with a brain largely unfit to live in this world if you don't pump me full of Ritalin. I don't have neurological issues, I'm just different! The world should accomodate to my existence instead of sending me to a psychiatrist who will try to "fix" me and my brain! (That was sarcasm for all you neurodivergents that don't get it.)
- zepto 5y ago
  Generally ADHD is not classified as a mental illness by diagnostic models. Many mental illnesses are comorbidities of adhd though.
  - caddemon 5y ago
    Maybe a long time ago, but ADHD is in the DSM-5 and the ICD-11 now, which are the main references for diagnosis of mental illnesses. ADHD has a direct impact on abilities like emotion regulation and impulse control, it makes much more sense to classify it as a mental disorder than a learning disorder (or whatever other misconceptions used to exist).
    - zepto 5y ago
      > which are the main references for diagnosis of mental illnesses. They are also references for the diagnosis of neurological disorders. ADHD may be a neurological disorder but that doesn’t make it a mental illness.
      - 5y ago
zepto 5y ago
> But should we pave a path for people to double-down on problematic behavior? What problematic behavior do you mean?
Firadeoclus 5y ago
> I don't know any folks who are neurodivergent who desire their traits. Might that be because many people who like their traits don't consider themselves neurodivergent, and don't get called that by others?
- caddemon 5y ago
  People who actively use the term "neurodivergent" to describe themselves are more often than not part of the crowd that is proud of these traits. They are generally well aware they are atypical but do not view themselves as having a disorder. People who call themselves Autistic, ADHD, etc. would be considered neurodivergent by definition, but are much more likely to view their condition as a disorder and want to seek help. The ADHD subreddit actually banned all use of the words "neurodivergent", "neurotypical", etc. awhile back, which I think was an overaction, but they were trying to get the sub back to a place where it could be used for advice to manage ADHD, not a place to play identity politics and tell people they should actually be thankful for their disorder. You have a good point that high achieving individuals are less likely to be diagnosed, and high intelligence does seem to lead to some of these issues more often than they are seen in an average individual. However, the vast majority of people with these conditions are not part of that very small "gifted" category, and I think you'll be hard pressed to find "gifted" people in the neurodiversity movement. Historically these individuals have been left out of accomodations and wish they had received appropriate help for their impairments.
emptysongglass 5y ago
I don't know about "fixing you" but as someone with ADHD, modafinil and the Pomodoro Method have gotten me most of the way to productive parity with neurotypical people. And what ground I've lost I've made up in ability to look at novel solutions. I don't imagine for a second I'd ever have hacked it as an SWE without it.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

caddemon 5y ago

There definitely are neurodivergent people who think that way, I'm not sure what proportion but I've absolutely seen it IRL in addition to the messaging being rampant online. In some milder cases I can see the argument, but I agree for the most part it gets into dangerous territory - doubling down on bad behavior like you said. It reminds me of how parts of the deaf community will refuse treatments that could improve their ability to hear, as they use strikingly similar arguments to the neurodivergent people that act like they have an advantage. People should be able to make their own choices about medical treatment of course, but I don't think we as a society/culture should be indulging delusions. Not being able to hear is very clearly a bug. With neurodivergence there is such a range of severity it's harder to quantify, but I've seen way too many articles/posts in ASD communities encouraging behavior that clearly shouldn't be encouraged. I think some of this arises from how hard it is to walk the line between accomodations and enabling. Society was so unaccommodating for a long time that I think we are seeing the pendulum swing the other way. It's interesting to talk to therapists that work with children, as it's especially critical to find this balance in that population. It can be a hard thing for the trained professional to determine in some cases, let alone for the parents to handle. Ultimately I think we need to emphasize the fact that everyone has things they could improve on, because that mindset seems to be increasingly lost across the board (see obesity epidemic, "I'm just not a math person", etc.). It's okay to struggle with something but it's an entirely different beast to stop trying because you've decided that society is actually the wrong one and you're perfect the way you are. Doubly so if you proceed to bitch about research on these issues (which others may have much worse!) or impose your beliefs on your children. The latter being a problem in the deaf community, as some treatments work much better at a young age but parents will deny for their children: https://time.com/76154/deaf-culture-cochlear-implants/ https://time.com/76154/deaf-culture-cochlear-implants/ Although it's hard to blame the individuals here too much, because it's compelling to humans for obvious reasons to push the blame off themselves, and when you see 1000s of people online agreeing that you don't have a problem, it's easy to believe that.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
zepto 5y ago
> Not being able to hear is very clearly a bug. It’s not obvious that the software sense of a problematic deviation between design and implementation is a good model. Deafness clearly causes problems for people, that most people would not wish for. However that doesn’t mean an individual deaf person can’t be happier than an individual hearing person with their overall experience of life, and therefore not experience deafness as an impairment. > way too many articles/posts in ASD communities encouraging behavior that clearly shouldn't be encouraged What kind of behaviors are you talking about?
- caddemon 5y ago
  Actively avoiding social interaction even when it is causing the person to stagnate in their career or have family issues. Not needing to apologize for or otherwise address situations where the person said something legitimately mean. Obsessing over something to the point that other basic life functions get ignored. That's a few examples, but the general trend (and this isn't specific to the ASD community, I just read those pages more often) is that any deficit that relates to the disorder can be completely excused even if the person makes no reasonable effort to mitigate. And anything that could possibly be spun as a positive (and in some outlier cases may indeed be a positive) will be excessively praised. This of course doesn't reflect everyone's opinions, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually just a vocal minority. But it's having a broader effect on attitudes inside and outside the community. See also depression pages that push back on things which could legitimately help because none of them are a cure all (e.g. exercise). Edit: to address the hearing loss point you added I was just using an expression. The point is that whether it is good to be deaf is objectively not debatable, nobody (outside of those wrapped up in deaf culture) would want to make themselves deaf. Just because an arbitrary deaf person could be happier than an arbitrary hearing person doesn't mean that the deafness doesn't impair them relative to their own baseline. Ironically, that misconception is something some people with disabilities have had to fight! High IQ individuals with learning disabilities do well enough in school that they are often ignored, despite the fact they could do even better if they were taught how to manage their shortcomings. The comparison has to be made to yourself longitudinally, not to others. When there is no good treatment available there's some argument for the sort of positive attitude you are describing, but it makes no sense when it leads people to avoid help.

Pelic4n 5y ago

Welcome to identity politics, where you don't have a crippling mental illness, you're just neurologically diverse, you're not morbidly obese and dying of diabetes, you're just body-size diverse, and so on. Everything about you will be commodified and sold to you as a pre-packaged identity, a very complete offer including lifestyle, medias, community and political opinions. You're not you anymore and you don't need to be, you're your culture, skin color, sexual orientation, gender identity, disabilities, etc. You get your own little bubble, very safe, very inclusive. You just have to play by the rules and keep producing and consuming. I have ADHD too, I have to realize that I'm not a mentally ill individual with a brain largely unfit to live in this world if you don't pump me full of Ritalin. I don't have neurological issues, I'm just different! The world should accomodate to my existence instead of sending me to a psychiatrist who will try to "fix" me and my brain! (That was sarcasm for all you neurodivergents that don't get it.)

zepto 5y ago
Generally ADHD is not classified as a mental illness by diagnostic models. Many mental illnesses are comorbidities of adhd though.
- caddemon 5y ago
  Maybe a long time ago, but ADHD is in the DSM-5 and the ICD-11 now, which are the main references for diagnosis of mental illnesses. ADHD has a direct impact on abilities like emotion regulation and impulse control, it makes much more sense to classify it as a mental disorder than a learning disorder (or whatever other misconceptions used to exist).
  - zepto 5y ago
    > which are the main references for diagnosis of mental illnesses. They are also references for the diagnosis of neurological disorders. ADHD may be a neurological disorder but that doesn’t make it a mental illness.
    - 5y ago

zepto 5y ago

> But should we pave a path for people to double-down on problematic behavior? What problematic behavior do you mean?

Firadeoclus 5y ago

> I don't know any folks who are neurodivergent who desire their traits. Might that be because many people who like their traits don't consider themselves neurodivergent, and don't get called that by others?

caddemon 5y ago
People who actively use the term "neurodivergent" to describe themselves are more often than not part of the crowd that is proud of these traits. They are generally well aware they are atypical but do not view themselves as having a disorder. People who call themselves Autistic, ADHD, etc. would be considered neurodivergent by definition, but are much more likely to view their condition as a disorder and want to seek help. The ADHD subreddit actually banned all use of the words "neurodivergent", "neurotypical", etc. awhile back, which I think was an overaction, but they were trying to get the sub back to a place where it could be used for advice to manage ADHD, not a place to play identity politics and tell people they should actually be thankful for their disorder. You have a good point that high achieving individuals are less likely to be diagnosed, and high intelligence does seem to lead to some of these issues more often than they are seen in an average individual. However, the vast majority of people with these conditions are not part of that very small "gifted" category, and I think you'll be hard pressed to find "gifted" people in the neurodiversity movement. Historically these individuals have been left out of accomodations and wish they had received appropriate help for their impairments.

emptysongglass 5y ago

I don't know about "fixing you" but as someone with ADHD, modafinil and the Pomodoro Method have gotten me most of the way to productive parity with neurotypical people. And what ground I've lost I've made up in ability to look at novel solutions. I don't imagine for a second I'd ever have hacked it as an SWE without it.