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As someone who is not a vegan I think this is a very well written, concise summary of the distinction. I appreciated the clarity. Personally I am not swayed by

As someone who is not a vegan I think this is a very well written, concise summary of the distinction. I appreciated the clarity. Personally I am not swayed by veganism because I think the concept of suffering is oversimplified. In my view, suffering is better described as cognitive awareness of the situation causing pain or distress. Being mauled to death by a leopard is far more likely to cause suffering than a cow being walked into an abattoir—because the cow has no concept of an abattoir. A cow spends 18 months in a field living a generally quite nice life. In its last moments there is momentary discomfort as it is knocked unconscious by an explosive bolt to the head. Is this moment of discomfort so intolerable, so ruinous of the animal's prior worth, that it's better if it never existed in the first place? In my opinion, this conclusion is absurd to the point of being weird. I say this as someone who has personally experienced the sensation of been knocked unconscious by a severe blow to the head; in my case caused by an involuntary backwards fall towards the ground. I did not "suffer" at all until after I woke up with a headache. Had this strike to the head proved fatal, I can't imagine how I could have suffered at all. There are many aspects of the animal food industry which are cruel and should be made illegal. There are many aspects of the animal food industry which have serious externalities that are bad for human civilisation. But this doesn't make absolutism the moral high ground.

checkyoursudo 5y ago
I have thought there was a short story to be written (or maybe it already has been!) about aliens who come to earth and start eating humans. When the humans complain, the aliens say, "why do you complain? you eat other animals, we eat you -- no big deal!"
- TheFreim 5y ago
  I'd say the fact that humans can complain gives a hint that they, and the hypothetical aliens, are in a desperate category than cows.
- TacticalCoder 5y ago
  I remember a very old comics (in french?) where this happen: aliens arrive on earth, chase a human, start eating him alive (an ear, a part of his arm) but then they find the taste just disgusting so they leave it there, bleeding but alive and suffering.
- danielheath 5y ago
  Red Dwarf covered this as an (IMO very funny) side-plot (in the episode where they accidentally interfered with JFK's assassination).
  - simondotau 5y ago
    In terms of comedy derived from the eating of animals, I'm partial to the restaurant scene in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "Is there any reason why I shouldn't have a green salad?" "I know many vegetables that are very clear on that point sir, which is why it was decided to cut through the whole tangled problem by breeding an animal that actually wanted to be eaten—and was capable of saying so, clearly and distinctly. And here I am." "Glass of water?" https://youtu.be/bAF35dekiAY?t=87 https://youtu.be/bAF35dekiAY?t=87
estaseuropano 5y ago
I think far fewer people would be vegetarian if any aspect of modern farming looks even remotely the way you describe below. At most a tiny fraction of the cows in milk or meat production (and basically NONE of the pigs or chicken) ever see an open pasture in their lives. Cows are impregnated and kept in small fenced areas,l all their lives. Their babies are removed most often right after birth, sometimes a few days later. The calves are separated and kept with other calves, fed a small share of the milk produced by their mothers (or even just from the tank containing all cows' milk. The males are butchered as babies and the females raised for milk production and share the fate of their mothers - dozens of babies, taken away each time right after birth. All of them are fed various kinds of medicine (steroids, antibiotics, etc) to make sure they grow fast and survive, irrespective of whether they suffer. For slaughter they are usually first stuffed in wagons or trucks and carted hours to whatever abattoir paid the best price. There they are in a long queue where they hear and smell and later see the animals in front of them being killed. The 'shock' is often hit or miss, meaning many are alive when they get the bolt into their skull, others even survive that for a bit. All that just so that you get a cheap burger. Dozens of the quality labels are just lies: e.g. Grass fed means they got grass, not that they were ever outside. Most animals never see the sky in their lives. I appreciate that it could be much more humane, but to ignore that the above is the reality today is just willful denial. Advertisements show you beautiful alps or Argentinian meadows, but these are not the reality in which your animal actually lived.
- simondotau 5y ago
  What country are you in where they're building giant sheds to hide cows from the sky? I doubt there's been a single cow in my home country of Australia that has been grown for food or milk and didn't see the sky nearly every day of its life. Even our largest factory dairy farms only only bring cows inside for milking. The closest thing to living indoors would be man-made outdoor shade. I'm not saying that the entire animal food industry is humane; I would be very happy to see a permanent end to caged egg production, as well as the bullshit ultra-factory "cage free" egg production. There's a lot to be concerned about and we need much better standards across the entire industry. It can be improved. But all too often the descriptions of the animal food industry are just so divorced from reality that one wonders if some vegan activists have ever actually visited a farm.
richrichardsson 5y ago
> because the cow has no concept of an abattoir It may not have the "concept" of an abattoir, however it's not entirely uncommon for them to know what's coming when being taken to slaughter [1] (as additional anecdata I knew a chap in Cornwall who was on call for dealing with this exact scenario). [1] https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cow-shot-dead-police-after-18978188 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cow-shot-dead-police-a...

checkyoursudo 5y ago

I have thought there was a short story to be written (or maybe it already has been!) about aliens who come to earth and start eating humans. When the humans complain, the aliens say, "why do you complain? you eat other animals, we eat you -- no big deal!"

TheFreim 5y ago
I'd say the fact that humans can complain gives a hint that they, and the hypothetical aliens, are in a desperate category than cows.
TacticalCoder 5y ago
I remember a very old comics (in french?) where this happen: aliens arrive on earth, chase a human, start eating him alive (an ear, a part of his arm) but then they find the taste just disgusting so they leave it there, bleeding but alive and suffering.
danielheath 5y ago
Red Dwarf covered this as an (IMO very funny) side-plot (in the episode where they accidentally interfered with JFK's assassination).
- simondotau 5y ago
  In terms of comedy derived from the eating of animals, I'm partial to the restaurant scene in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "Is there any reason why I shouldn't have a green salad?" "I know many vegetables that are very clear on that point sir, which is why it was decided to cut through the whole tangled problem by breeding an animal that actually wanted to be eaten—and was capable of saying so, clearly and distinctly. And here I am." "Glass of water?" https://youtu.be/bAF35dekiAY?t=87 https://youtu.be/bAF35dekiAY?t=87

estaseuropano 5y ago

I think far fewer people would be vegetarian if any aspect of modern farming looks even remotely the way you describe below. At most a tiny fraction of the cows in milk or meat production (and basically NONE of the pigs or chicken) ever see an open pasture in their lives. Cows are impregnated and kept in small fenced areas,l all their lives. Their babies are removed most often right after birth, sometimes a few days later. The calves are separated and kept with other calves, fed a small share of the milk produced by their mothers (or even just from the tank containing all cows' milk. The males are butchered as babies and the females raised for milk production and share the fate of their mothers - dozens of babies, taken away each time right after birth. All of them are fed various kinds of medicine (steroids, antibiotics, etc) to make sure they grow fast and survive, irrespective of whether they suffer. For slaughter they are usually first stuffed in wagons or trucks and carted hours to whatever abattoir paid the best price. There they are in a long queue where they hear and smell and later see the animals in front of them being killed. The 'shock' is often hit or miss, meaning many are alive when they get the bolt into their skull, others even survive that for a bit. All that just so that you get a cheap burger. Dozens of the quality labels are just lies: e.g. Grass fed means they got grass, not that they were ever outside. Most animals never see the sky in their lives. I appreciate that it could be much more humane, but to ignore that the above is the reality today is just willful denial. Advertisements show you beautiful alps or Argentinian meadows, but these are not the reality in which your animal actually lived.

simondotau 5y ago
What country are you in where they're building giant sheds to hide cows from the sky? I doubt there's been a single cow in my home country of Australia that has been grown for food or milk and didn't see the sky nearly every day of its life. Even our largest factory dairy farms only only bring cows inside for milking. The closest thing to living indoors would be man-made outdoor shade. I'm not saying that the entire animal food industry is humane; I would be very happy to see a permanent end to caged egg production, as well as the bullshit ultra-factory "cage free" egg production. There's a lot to be concerned about and we need much better standards across the entire industry. It can be improved. But all too often the descriptions of the animal food industry are just so divorced from reality that one wonders if some vegan activists have ever actually visited a farm.

richrichardsson 5y ago

> because the cow has no concept of an abattoir It may not have the "concept" of an abattoir, however it's not entirely uncommon for them to know what's coming when being taken to slaughter [1] (as additional anecdata I knew a chap in Cornwall who was on call for dealing with this exact scenario). [1] https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cow-shot-dead-police-after-18978188 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cow-shot-dead-police-a...