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>The position of all people is equal before the law. A statement therefore ought to be treated in the same way whether it targets group x or group y. That migh

>The position of all people is equal before the law. A statement therefore ought to be treated in the same way whether it targets group x or group y. That might be a nice ideal, but just not true in practice or history. Like the law referenced in the article: >hate speech, which is banned under German law if it threatens the peace or incites violence against minority groups. “Minority group” =/= “Any group”

mytailorisrich 5y ago
> That might be a nice ideal, but just not true in practice or history. That's how it is in practice. Everyone's equal under the law. Specifically on these issues, all groups are equal (meaning all races, ethnicities, etc.) In Germany, and European countries in general, targeting groups based on race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc. is illegal. It does not matter whether a group is a "minority group", whatever that means (quite sensibly so, of course). For example, I believe that this German law is generally applicable: "Whosoever, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace: 1. incites hatred against a national, racial, religious group or a group defined by their ethnic origins, against segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or 2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning an aforementioned group, segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population, or defaming segments of the population, shall be liable to imprisonment from three months to five years." [1] > > hate speech, which is banned under German law if it threatens the peace or incites violence against minority groups. Based on the above, I think that the article has it wrong. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung
- guerrilla 5y ago
  > That's how it is in practice. Everyone's equal under the law. Specifically on these issues, all groups are equal (meaning all races, ethnicities, etc.) If this were true in the US, for example, then the following would not be true: > Black men and women are imprisoned at higher rates compared to all other age groups, with the highest rate being Black men aged 25 to 39. In 2001, almost 17% of Black men had previously been imprisoned in comparison to 2.6% of White men. By the end of 2002, of the two million inmates of the U.S. incarceration system, Black men surpassed the number of White men (586,700 to 436,800 respectively of inmates with sentences more than one year). In the same year, there were also more Black women behind bars than White women (36,000 to 35,400). African-Americans are about eight times more likely to be imprisoned than Whites. The Sentencing Project, a Washington, D.C.-based non-profit organization, released in 1990 that almost one in four Black men in the U.S. between the ages of 20 and 29 were under some degree of control by the criminal justice system. In 1995, the organization announced that the rate had increased to one in three. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#Disproportional_incarceration_of_black_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra...
  - tomp 5y ago
    Wikipedia has become such a cesspool of fake data that I find this hard to believe. > Black men and women are imprisoned at higher rates compared to all other age groups According to [1], the rate for white men is far above the rate for black women. So this is probably a lie. Also since when are black, men and/or women "age groups"?! If you can't tell race and sex from age, how can I trust your statistics? [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/252871/imprisonment-rate-of-sentenced-prisoners-in-the-us-by-sex-and-ethnicity/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/252871/imprisonment-rate...
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      Your data [1] shows that the number of black males imprisoned per 100,000 residents is 2,203 and it shows that the number of white males imprisoned per 100,000 residents is 385. The former is greater than the latter, in accordance with the quote. For more data, we can also look at just the Federal Bureau of Prisons [2] and we see that 38.2% of inmates are black while 57.8% of inmates are white despite the fact that only 16.1% of the US population is black while 75.7% of the US population is white. As far as your comment on age groups, you're just going to have to re-read it until you understand what it's saying. 1. https://www.statista.com/statistics/252871/imprisonment-rate-of-sentenced-prisoners-in-the-us-by-sex-and-ethnicity/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/252871/imprisonment-rate... 2. https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race....
      - username90 5y ago
        You are arguing a different point, the post said that black men and black women are the most imprisoned groups. Black men are more imprisoned than white men, yes, but white men are more imprisoned than black women. Womens issues and black issues are completely different, don't just mix them up randomly like this.
        guerrilla 5y ago
        > Black men and women are imprisoned at higher rates compared to all other age groups Aha, then they're just misreading that sentence then. It obviously means black men and black women as a whole are imprisoned at higher rates.
- joshjdr 5y ago
  Thanks for sharing the legal text of the law that was referenced by the article. After reading that, it seems that yes the article may have casually redefined the concept of 'minority groups'. That said, the Wikipedia entry (in English at least) begins: >Volksverhetzung, in English "incitement to hatred" (used also in the official English translation of the German Criminal Code),[1][2] "incitement of popular hatred", "incitement of the masses", or "instigation of the people" I know German-English translations can be tricky, but based on that, and more so the not-so-ancient history that brought the policy about, it would seem we'd be denying practical and historical precedent in claiming: >The position of all people is equal before the law. Perhaps the parent comment was specifically referencing modern German/EU law. If that's the case I wouldn't argue, as I believe in the ideal. However presented as an axiom? It doesn't hold practically or historically. Volksverhetzung was passed not 30 years after the Nuremberg laws were passed. Here in the US it took a constitutional amendment to recognize women's right to vote; and after that it took additional acts of congress to outlaw discrimination based on race/religion/origin/sex/origin/orientation. I don't know... but based on Volksverhetzung, the 19th Amendment, and the Civil Rights Act, it would seem it might be a fairer statement to say that, lately, we're collectively trying to use the legal system as a means to ensure equal position of people before it.

mytailorisrich 5y ago

> That might be a nice ideal, but just not true in practice or history. That's how it is in practice. Everyone's equal under the law. Specifically on these issues, all groups are equal (meaning all races, ethnicities, etc.) In Germany, and European countries in general, targeting groups based on race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc. is illegal. It does not matter whether a group is a "minority group", whatever that means (quite sensibly so, of course). For example, I believe that this German law is generally applicable: "Whosoever, in a manner capable of disturbing the public peace: 1. incites hatred against a national, racial, religious group or a group defined by their ethnic origins, against segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or 2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning an aforementioned group, segments of the population or individuals because of their belonging to one of the aforementioned groups or segments of the population, or defaming segments of the population, shall be liable to imprisonment from three months to five years." [1] > > hate speech, which is banned under German law if it threatens the peace or incites violence against minority groups. Based on the above, I think that the article has it wrong. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung

guerrilla 5y ago
> That's how it is in practice. Everyone's equal under the law. Specifically on these issues, all groups are equal (meaning all races, ethnicities, etc.) If this were true in the US, for example, then the following would not be true: > Black men and women are imprisoned at higher rates compared to all other age groups, with the highest rate being Black men aged 25 to 39. In 2001, almost 17% of Black men had previously been imprisoned in comparison to 2.6% of White men. By the end of 2002, of the two million inmates of the U.S. incarceration system, Black men surpassed the number of White men (586,700 to 436,800 respectively of inmates with sentences more than one year). In the same year, there were also more Black women behind bars than White women (36,000 to 35,400). African-Americans are about eight times more likely to be imprisoned than Whites. The Sentencing Project, a Washington, D.C.-based non-profit organization, released in 1990 that almost one in four Black men in the U.S. between the ages of 20 and 29 were under some degree of control by the criminal justice system. In 1995, the organization announced that the rate had increased to one in three. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#Disproportional_incarceration_of_black_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra...
- tomp 5y ago
  Wikipedia has become such a cesspool of fake data that I find this hard to believe. > Black men and women are imprisoned at higher rates compared to all other age groups According to [1], the rate for white men is far above the rate for black women. So this is probably a lie. Also since when are black, men and/or women "age groups"?! If you can't tell race and sex from age, how can I trust your statistics? [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/252871/imprisonment-rate-of-sentenced-prisoners-in-the-us-by-sex-and-ethnicity/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/252871/imprisonment-rate...
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    Your data [1] shows that the number of black males imprisoned per 100,000 residents is 2,203 and it shows that the number of white males imprisoned per 100,000 residents is 385. The former is greater than the latter, in accordance with the quote. For more data, we can also look at just the Federal Bureau of Prisons [2] and we see that 38.2% of inmates are black while 57.8% of inmates are white despite the fact that only 16.1% of the US population is black while 75.7% of the US population is white. As far as your comment on age groups, you're just going to have to re-read it until you understand what it's saying. 1. https://www.statista.com/statistics/252871/imprisonment-rate-of-sentenced-prisoners-in-the-us-by-sex-and-ethnicity/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/252871/imprisonment-rate... 2. https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race....
    - username90 5y ago
      You are arguing a different point, the post said that black men and black women are the most imprisoned groups. Black men are more imprisoned than white men, yes, but white men are more imprisoned than black women. Womens issues and black issues are completely different, don't just mix them up randomly like this.
      - guerrilla 5y ago
        > Black men and women are imprisoned at higher rates compared to all other age groups Aha, then they're just misreading that sentence then. It obviously means black men and black women as a whole are imprisoned at higher rates.
joshjdr 5y ago
Thanks for sharing the legal text of the law that was referenced by the article. After reading that, it seems that yes the article may have casually redefined the concept of 'minority groups'. That said, the Wikipedia entry (in English at least) begins: >Volksverhetzung, in English "incitement to hatred" (used also in the official English translation of the German Criminal Code),[1][2] "incitement of popular hatred", "incitement of the masses", or "instigation of the people" I know German-English translations can be tricky, but based on that, and more so the not-so-ancient history that brought the policy about, it would seem we'd be denying practical and historical precedent in claiming: >The position of all people is equal before the law. Perhaps the parent comment was specifically referencing modern German/EU law. If that's the case I wouldn't argue, as I believe in the ideal. However presented as an axiom? It doesn't hold practically or historically. Volksverhetzung was passed not 30 years after the Nuremberg laws were passed. Here in the US it took a constitutional amendment to recognize women's right to vote; and after that it took additional acts of congress to outlaw discrimination based on race/religion/origin/sex/origin/orientation. I don't know... but based on Volksverhetzung, the 19th Amendment, and the Civil Rights Act, it would seem it might be a fairer statement to say that, lately, we're collectively trying to use the legal system as a means to ensure equal position of people before it.