4 ms·

I'd be curious to hear peoples experience of class in the UK and how it's effected their careers (particularly in tech). To me it feels like class still has a

by new299 5y ago

I'd be curious to hear peoples experience of class in the UK and how it's effected their careers (particularly in tech). To me it feels like class still has a significant effect. In particular that: * Upper class connections can affect funding decisions. * Presenting as middle class, affect hiring and career progression.

_fizz_buzz_ 5y ago
Having a daddy with rich friends helps in every country. I am not from the UK, but I know a few people that went to Oxford University. They all had middle class backgrounds and went on to have very good careers.
notrlyme 5y ago
UK Upper class is a long running system of creating a dividing line between a group of people who prioritise personal power over societal progression. Its more flexible and evolving that any simple definition gives it credit. Looking at language games is a classic for me. FOr want of a better description there is a posh way of talking that is derived from the upper classes of the UK, it eveolves and changes but a few things remain constant: its not any better or more accurate than any other dialect in teh UK. it looks down and ridicules every other dialect. it has derogitory terms for everyone all over the world apart from rich people who keep a house in south east england. THis is so outragously successful that i think every english speaking person on earth has an inbult tendancy to buy into this at som elevel to some extent - no matter how damaging it is to you personally. It involves a long running story of ensuring that everything that has every been said in that accent is "correct". the BBC is never wrong.. the government always knows what its doing etc.. the UK has long running history of doing terrible things (like every state does to some extent) but the UK never takes reponsibility.. there is a vage thing of looking back over say 150 years and saying that was wrong what they did, but what is never done is following the direct connections through to the poswer structures today. e.g. afaik oxford today has income every year of interest on investments / money that it got from people essentially abusing the colonies. sure they say, those people were bad, but they dont accept that their position of power now directly correlates to that. When you look at the advantages given to someone who went to eton then oxford and compare them to someoen with no degree or from a crappy uni then if they are appearing in the same league at work teh oxford person shoul dbe seen as a clown - you had every advantage in the book and you are still just average? instead the assumption is that this person is some kind of leader to be listened to. their history is somehow taken as an advantage, when its clearly not. SImilarly effecting organsiational change with just a few of these upper class clowns around becomes a nightmare.. they are functionally incompitent but are sure because of how they speak and where they were ediucated that their instincts must be somehow correct. nott o mention that they have so many connections they can either side step to another similar role or can make your life hell for exposibng their corruption or incompitence. Personally anyone who i meet in a serious job ith an upper class accent has a lot to prove to me before i trust them even slightly, and to date i have only met a few worth listening to. and these have some obvious differences, e.g. they made some life choices significantly deviating from the classic good boy/girl story early in life. Ive done no formal study but based on anecdata i would say that an idiot who went to a good uni with an upper class accent (or capacable of being perceived as that like Mogg) can expect significantly better salary. can make ludicrous selfish demands and it will be seen as them "working the system" and "being smart" rather than just being a selfhish shit bag. and can generally expect more promotion and higher profile oppourtunities. None of this is the individuals fault and the solutions are complex.. but this is imho what its like.
exdsq 5y ago
I'm probably in the middle/upper-middle according to the authors opinions and have had very little benefit from it in tech. I'm sure I could have in some other field but tech is very pro-equality and modern in its nature.
idakyne 5y ago
Classism is pervasive in the UK. Many people will argue that it no longer exists however they are mistaken ( and most notably not on the lower rungs of the class hierarchy ). The view from the working class looking up is very different than if you are born into a middle/upper class family. It’s not all about wealth either. Not having Received Pronunciation (I.e. a non southern accent ). The manner in which you speak, dress, behave are all class signals that are picked up on. From a career perspective it is apparent that certain doors are closed (or at least a lot more difficult to open ) because of class. I’ve had recruiters blatantly tell me that I didn’t go to the ‘correct’ university (Oxford, Cambridge or Imperial) so there was not much point in applying as I wouldn’t get through an initial HR screening process.
- new299 5y ago
  I think it's probably Estuary English [1] now rather than RP. I'd agree there are lots of class signals that people pick on. Accent is probably high up the list. Yes, it feels to me like it has more of an affect than many people realize. It's become more obvious to me after leaving the UK and seeing how other societies operate. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English
denton-scratch 5y ago
In these remarks, I use the term "public school". In the UK, that term refers to private secondary schools, and that's how I'm using it. My background is middle-class: - I went to public school, as did my father and mother - My father was a regular soldier, and scion of a family with money from commerce - My mother was raised in Hong Kong, and spoke with a very posh-sounding colonial accent; but she was a teacher's daughter. My father was also well-spoken. - I ended up with a public school accent. Living in Liverpool, I was often mocked. I fetched up in London, and began to affect a mockney accent. It wasn't even proper mockney - it was the accent spoken by London hippies and drop-outs. I made no effort to acquire that accent; it just moved in. I'm pretty sure that anyone who was interested could observe the public-school accent shining through. I've now shed that mockney accent, I'm glad to say; it disappeared the same way it arrived - with no effort on my part. Along with a public-school accent, you acquire manners and customs. The combination of a noticeable public-school accent with the manners and customs, is attractive to prospective employers. Especially if they happen to share your accent, manners and customs. And public-school-educated people tend to be over-represented among employers. I'm not an academic; I have no idea how poshness or connections affects funding decisions. I have never gained any advantage from either family or school connections. I suppose I might have been able to, had I been so inclined. A public school education definitely makes it easier to get into a decent university, and so get a reputable degree; there is constant wringing-of-hands in government circles about how to address that imbalance in intake (it seems to me to be as plain as the nose on my face: stop giving huge tax-breaks to public schools, and spend a lot more money on state education). My second wife was a farmer's daughter from Leicestershire. She spoke with a mild accent, except when she was in Leicestershire; then her accent became quite broad. She always felt inferior because of her accent (she was bright and accomplished, and her manners and customs were middle-class). I pointed out to her that her father had been a landowner, and her mother was from a fairly wealthy family; that my family were landless; and so if anything, she was posher than me (but with a regional accent). My remarks made no difference - TTBOMK she still feels bad about her regional accent. It's not obvious to me that Hannah deliberately acquired a posh accent; it may well have 'osmosed' in, just because she was hanging out with posh people. My sister went to private secondary school, but in downtown Liverpool. She acquired a scouse accent. Some working-class people are impressed by a posh accent; they think it marks you as being more intelligent than they are. People pay more attention to speakers with Received Pronunciation, and give greater respect to their views. This actually causes me to hold back on expressing opinions; I'm ashamed to take advantage of that kind of unearned respect. BTW: I've never known anyone who spoke with such an outrageous accent as Jacob Rees-Mogg. It's obvious to me that he exaggerates it for effect. His father certainly didn't speak with such horribly-contorted vowels. That is: he's a fake, and he gets away with it; he's trading on a poshness that he never really had.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

by new299 5y ago

_fizz_buzz_ 5y ago

Having a daddy with rich friends helps in every country. I am not from the UK, but I know a few people that went to Oxford University. They all had middle class backgrounds and went on to have very good careers.

notrlyme 5y ago

UK Upper class is a long running system of creating a dividing line between a group of people who prioritise personal power over societal progression. Its more flexible and evolving that any simple definition gives it credit. Looking at language games is a classic for me. FOr want of a better description there is a posh way of talking that is derived from the upper classes of the UK, it eveolves and changes but a few things remain constant: its not any better or more accurate than any other dialect in teh UK. it looks down and ridicules every other dialect. it has derogitory terms for everyone all over the world apart from rich people who keep a house in south east england. THis is so outragously successful that i think every english speaking person on earth has an inbult tendancy to buy into this at som elevel to some extent - no matter how damaging it is to you personally. It involves a long running story of ensuring that everything that has every been said in that accent is "correct". the BBC is never wrong.. the government always knows what its doing etc.. the UK has long running history of doing terrible things (like every state does to some extent) but the UK never takes reponsibility.. there is a vage thing of looking back over say 150 years and saying that was wrong what they did, but what is never done is following the direct connections through to the poswer structures today. e.g. afaik oxford today has income every year of interest on investments / money that it got from people essentially abusing the colonies. sure they say, those people were bad, but they dont accept that their position of power now directly correlates to that. When you look at the advantages given to someone who went to eton then oxford and compare them to someoen with no degree or from a crappy uni then if they are appearing in the same league at work teh oxford person shoul dbe seen as a clown - you had every advantage in the book and you are still just average? instead the assumption is that this person is some kind of leader to be listened to. their history is somehow taken as an advantage, when its clearly not. SImilarly effecting organsiational change with just a few of these upper class clowns around becomes a nightmare.. they are functionally incompitent but are sure because of how they speak and where they were ediucated that their instincts must be somehow correct. nott o mention that they have so many connections they can either side step to another similar role or can make your life hell for exposibng their corruption or incompitence. Personally anyone who i meet in a serious job ith an upper class accent has a lot to prove to me before i trust them even slightly, and to date i have only met a few worth listening to. and these have some obvious differences, e.g. they made some life choices significantly deviating from the classic good boy/girl story early in life. Ive done no formal study but based on anecdata i would say that an idiot who went to a good uni with an upper class accent (or capacable of being perceived as that like Mogg) can expect significantly better salary. can make ludicrous selfish demands and it will be seen as them "working the system" and "being smart" rather than just being a selfhish shit bag. and can generally expect more promotion and higher profile oppourtunities. None of this is the individuals fault and the solutions are complex.. but this is imho what its like.

exdsq 5y ago

I'm probably in the middle/upper-middle according to the authors opinions and have had very little benefit from it in tech. I'm sure I could have in some other field but tech is very pro-equality and modern in its nature.

idakyne 5y ago

Classism is pervasive in the UK. Many people will argue that it no longer exists however they are mistaken ( and most notably not on the lower rungs of the class hierarchy ). The view from the working class looking up is very different than if you are born into a middle/upper class family. It’s not all about wealth either. Not having Received Pronunciation (I.e. a non southern accent ). The manner in which you speak, dress, behave are all class signals that are picked up on. From a career perspective it is apparent that certain doors are closed (or at least a lot more difficult to open ) because of class. I’ve had recruiters blatantly tell me that I didn’t go to the ‘correct’ university (Oxford, Cambridge or Imperial) so there was not much point in applying as I wouldn’t get through an initial HR screening process.

new299 5y ago
I think it's probably Estuary English [1] now rather than RP. I'd agree there are lots of class signals that people pick on. Accent is probably high up the list. Yes, it feels to me like it has more of an affect than many people realize. It's become more obvious to me after leaving the UK and seeing how other societies operate. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English

denton-scratch 5y ago

In these remarks, I use the term "public school". In the UK, that term refers to private secondary schools, and that's how I'm using it. My background is middle-class: - I went to public school, as did my father and mother - My father was a regular soldier, and scion of a family with money from commerce - My mother was raised in Hong Kong, and spoke with a very posh-sounding colonial accent; but she was a teacher's daughter. My father was also well-spoken. - I ended up with a public school accent. Living in Liverpool, I was often mocked. I fetched up in London, and began to affect a mockney accent. It wasn't even proper mockney - it was the accent spoken by London hippies and drop-outs. I made no effort to acquire that accent; it just moved in. I'm pretty sure that anyone who was interested could observe the public-school accent shining through. I've now shed that mockney accent, I'm glad to say; it disappeared the same way it arrived - with no effort on my part. Along with a public-school accent, you acquire manners and customs. The combination of a noticeable public-school accent with the manners and customs, is attractive to prospective employers. Especially if they happen to share your accent, manners and customs. And public-school-educated people tend to be over-represented among employers. I'm not an academic; I have no idea how poshness or connections affects funding decisions. I have never gained any advantage from either family or school connections. I suppose I might have been able to, had I been so inclined. A public school education definitely makes it easier to get into a decent university, and so get a reputable degree; there is constant wringing-of-hands in government circles about how to address that imbalance in intake (it seems to me to be as plain as the nose on my face: stop giving huge tax-breaks to public schools, and spend a lot more money on state education). My second wife was a farmer's daughter from Leicestershire. She spoke with a mild accent, except when she was in Leicestershire; then her accent became quite broad. She always felt inferior because of her accent (she was bright and accomplished, and her manners and customs were middle-class). I pointed out to her that her father had been a landowner, and her mother was from a fairly wealthy family; that my family were landless; and so if anything, she was posher than me (but with a regional accent). My remarks made no difference - TTBOMK she still feels bad about her regional accent. It's not obvious to me that Hannah deliberately acquired a posh accent; it may well have 'osmosed' in, just because she was hanging out with posh people. My sister went to private secondary school, but in downtown Liverpool. She acquired a scouse accent. Some working-class people are impressed by a posh accent; they think it marks you as being more intelligent than they are. People pay more attention to speakers with Received Pronunciation, and give greater respect to their views. This actually causes me to hold back on expressing opinions; I'm ashamed to take advantage of that kind of unearned respect. BTW: I've never known anyone who spoke with such an outrageous accent as Jacob Rees-Mogg. It's obvious to me that he exaggerates it for effect. His father certainly didn't speak with such horribly-contorted vowels. That is: he's a fake, and he gets away with it; he's trading on a poshness that he never really had.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]