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> If asking people to take a specific step that has a good chance of protecting them from disease or even death is “virtue signaling” and therefore evil, the co

> If asking people to take a specific step that has a good chance of protecting them from disease or even death is “virtue signaling” and therefore evil, the concept has lost any meaning it may or may not have had. At this point it's not even so much about protecting them anymore as it is about protecting them from continuing to mutate and spread a virus that kills people. The "anti-vaxxer" folk are choosing to not only be a danger to themselves but to potentially anyone they come in contact with. What's worse is that they're actively trying to spread their ignorance about vaccines to other people, thereby growing the danger and the problem.

native_samples 5y ago
No they aren't. Vaccinated people spread the virus just as much as the unvaccinated do. Look at the data. Your belief gives you a feeling of strong moral righteousness and makes you angry, but is based in ignorance of the facts.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 5y ago
  That's nonsense, or, more likely, wilful misrepresentation. You're referring to this story: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/health/covid-cdc-delta-masks.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/health/covid-cdc-delta-ma... Quote: "Infections in vaccinated Americans also may be as transmissible as those in unvaccinated people." That doesn't mean that vaccinated people are spreading the disease as much as the unvaccinated. Only the infected vaccinated people do. But, as happens with vaccinations, infections are, while possible, far less common among vaccinated people. Even the worst numbers put vaccine efficiency at 65%+ for infection. (85%+ for hospitalisation, 95%+ for death).
  - native_samples 5y ago
    That's not correct. Why assume I read the NYT? I'm referring to data from places with very high vaccination rates but summer waves of equal/greater size to prior waves, like Iceland. The only way that's possible is if vaccination doesn't slow down transmission at all. See for yourself. Google [iceland covid] and look at the graph. Cases go near vertical starting 16th July and are now the biggest wave they've ever had. Then click through to the vaccinations tab. They had vaccinated 70-75% of their population by that date (depending on whether you count first dose or second). If 75% of the population are vaccinated yet case curves are bigger than before, the vaccination is not stopping transmission. Edit: Also, recent data from the UK suggests effectiveness against infection has fallen to <20% in the over 50s. The calculations based on PHE data can be found here: https://dailysceptic.org/2021/07/25/phe-data-shows-vaccine-effectiveness-reduced-to-17-in-over-50s/ https://dailysceptic.org/2021/07/25/phe-data-shows-vaccine-e... By the way, are you flagging all my posts? Do you realize that's against the rules? Nothing in my last three posts is a flaggable offence yet suddenly they are all flagged. Do you want me to do the same to you if so?
  - native_samples 5y ago
    By the way, for everyone else who - like me - doesn't have a NYT subscription and thus don't know what the above comment is talking about, the Washington Post has what looks like an equivalent version of the same story: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-gu... Internal CDC documents have leaked. Here are some quotes from the report: "It cites a combination of recently obtained, still-unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant." "The breakthrough cases are to be expected, the CDC briefing states, and will probably rise as a proportion of all cases because there are so many more people vaccinated now. This echoes data seen from studies in other countries, including highly vaccinated Singapore, where 75 percent of new infections reportedly occur in people who are partially and fully vaccinated." "The presentation highlights the daunting task the CDC faces. It must continue to emphasize the proven efficacy of the vaccines at preventing severe illness and death while acknowledging milder breakthrough infections may not be so rare after all, and that vaccinated individuals are transmitting the virus. The agency must move the goal posts of success in full public view." There are some other points worth noting from the presentation: 1. The frequent and very US specific claim that "99% of hospitalizations are in the unvaccinated" isn't true. CDC stats show 15% of hospitalizations are from vaccinated people and the number is growing. Why are they claiming otherwise in public? 2. The confidential data is not really surprising, because it brings the USA into line with what every other country is seeing. There's a good summary of some of the latest non-US data from UK and Israel here. Efficacy against infection and "mild illness" keeps falling: https://swprs.org/covid-vaccines-the-good-the-bad-the-ugly/ https://swprs.org/covid-vaccines-the-good-the-bad-the-ugly/

native_samples 5y ago

No they aren't. Vaccinated people spread the virus just as much as the unvaccinated do. Look at the data. Your belief gives you a feeling of strong moral righteousness and makes you angry, but is based in ignorance of the facts.

IfOnlyYouKnew 5y ago
That's nonsense, or, more likely, wilful misrepresentation. You're referring to this story: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/health/covid-cdc-delta-masks.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/health/covid-cdc-delta-ma... Quote: "Infections in vaccinated Americans also may be as transmissible as those in unvaccinated people." That doesn't mean that vaccinated people are spreading the disease as much as the unvaccinated. Only the infected vaccinated people do. But, as happens with vaccinations, infections are, while possible, far less common among vaccinated people. Even the worst numbers put vaccine efficiency at 65%+ for infection. (85%+ for hospitalisation, 95%+ for death).
- native_samples 5y ago
  That's not correct. Why assume I read the NYT? I'm referring to data from places with very high vaccination rates but summer waves of equal/greater size to prior waves, like Iceland. The only way that's possible is if vaccination doesn't slow down transmission at all. See for yourself. Google [iceland covid] and look at the graph. Cases go near vertical starting 16th July and are now the biggest wave they've ever had. Then click through to the vaccinations tab. They had vaccinated 70-75% of their population by that date (depending on whether you count first dose or second). If 75% of the population are vaccinated yet case curves are bigger than before, the vaccination is not stopping transmission. Edit: Also, recent data from the UK suggests effectiveness against infection has fallen to <20% in the over 50s. The calculations based on PHE data can be found here: https://dailysceptic.org/2021/07/25/phe-data-shows-vaccine-effectiveness-reduced-to-17-in-over-50s/ https://dailysceptic.org/2021/07/25/phe-data-shows-vaccine-e... By the way, are you flagging all my posts? Do you realize that's against the rules? Nothing in my last three posts is a flaggable offence yet suddenly they are all flagged. Do you want me to do the same to you if so?
- native_samples 5y ago
  By the way, for everyone else who - like me - doesn't have a NYT subscription and thus don't know what the above comment is talking about, the Washington Post has what looks like an equivalent version of the same story: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-gu... Internal CDC documents have leaked. Here are some quotes from the report: "It cites a combination of recently obtained, still-unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant." "The breakthrough cases are to be expected, the CDC briefing states, and will probably rise as a proportion of all cases because there are so many more people vaccinated now. This echoes data seen from studies in other countries, including highly vaccinated Singapore, where 75 percent of new infections reportedly occur in people who are partially and fully vaccinated." "The presentation highlights the daunting task the CDC faces. It must continue to emphasize the proven efficacy of the vaccines at preventing severe illness and death while acknowledging milder breakthrough infections may not be so rare after all, and that vaccinated individuals are transmitting the virus. The agency must move the goal posts of success in full public view." There are some other points worth noting from the presentation: 1. The frequent and very US specific claim that "99% of hospitalizations are in the unvaccinated" isn't true. CDC stats show 15% of hospitalizations are from vaccinated people and the number is growing. Why are they claiming otherwise in public? 2. The confidential data is not really surprising, because it brings the USA into line with what every other country is seeing. There's a good summary of some of the latest non-US data from UK and Israel here. Efficacy against infection and "mild illness" keeps falling: https://swprs.org/covid-vaccines-the-good-the-bad-the-ugly/ https://swprs.org/covid-vaccines-the-good-the-bad-the-ugly/