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If you have to deploy your military on your citizens you have in fact ventured way beyond into the extreme.

Barrin92 5y ago
in many countries the military has a role to play during states of emergency or disasters or otherwise unusual situations like this, not every country is the US with its hyperbolic aversion to government or the state. The same bad takes keep happening every time an Anglosphere journalist sees the Gendarmerie on a French street.
- ThomPete 5y ago
  Of course the military is used for other means. This time just isn't one of them and thus my point still stands. When you have to use military to enforce your policies you've lost the plot it's really that simple.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  > The same bad takes keep happening every time an Anglosphere journalist sees the Gendarmerie on a French street. I'm not familiar with the "bad takes" happening in the Anglosphere, but it should be noted that the French Gendarmerie is not exactly the same thing as "the military". Until recently they were, technically, military, as in they were attached to the Defense Ministry. This has changed a few years ago, and are now attached to the Interior (Home) Ministry, like the "regular" Police. But this isn't what I'm arguing. Even before the change, the Gendarmerie was intended to police the citizens, even though they would sometime take part in external operations. They are basically "the police outside of cities". This is in contrast to the "regular military" whose goal is to operate outside of France. What is unusual is the "Operation Sentinelle", where actual soldiers are patrolling the streets of French cities in an effort to fight terrorism. But note that pretty much every action by the actual military inside of France is seen as exceptional, and there really aren't that many. For example, during the height of the Covid crisis last year, when hospitals were overflowing with the sick, the military transported some people from one hospital to another. This was considered fairly out of the ordinary, much more so than the national rail company preparing special TGVs (high-speed trains) for the same.
waste_monk 5y ago
They're being used to supplement the police force during a state of emergency. It's absolutely an appropriate use of the ADF.
- ThomPete 5y ago
  they are being used to enforce something you might think is appropriate, but something huge parts of the world including many Australians don’t think there is a moral basis for which is in part why they have to use the military. So you and i just have different moral compasses it seems. Enforcing your will by boots on the neck is a sign you are doing something wrong.
  - nmcveity 5y ago
    Why would the rest of the world get a say in what the ADF is used for? isn't that precisely the point of a military?
    - ThomPete 5y ago
      The rest of the world is entitled to opinions about what the ADF is being used for. If you think this is the point of the military then we just have two very different opinions about what it says about a governments ability to manage the mess they made themselves. The use of coercion is a sign you've failed regardless of the outcome.
      - waste_monk 5y ago
        >If you think this is the point of the military then we just have two very different opinions about what it says about a governments ability to manage the mess they made themselves. The ADF's stated mission is "to defend Australia and its national interests in order to advance Australia's security and prosperity.", and further goes on to state one of it's purposes is to "defend Australia and its national interests through the conduct of operations and provision of support for the Australian community and civilian authorities in accordance with Government direction." Supporting state government and local police during a time of declared emergency is clearly within that scope. Further, the ADF personnel deployed to assist with the lockdown will not be armed and will not have law enforcement powers - each ADF member will be paired with a regular police officer, and the police will be performing checks as they have for the last however many months [2]. This is simply to alleviate staffing and logistical issues, and is entirely ordinary. No one's getting a rifle squad kicking down their door because they didn't wear a mask. >The use of coercion is a sign you've failed regardless of the outcome. There is no coercion, and the whole point of the lockdowns are to prevent failure (that is, uncontrolled community transmission of COVID). [1] https://www1.defence.gov.au/about/at-a-glance https://www1.defence.gov.au/about/at-a-glance [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/adf-soldiers-to-arrive-in-sydney-covid19-lockdown/100336124 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/adf-soldiers-to-arriv... - quote extract from NSW Police Commissioner Mick Fuller

in many countries the military has a role to play during states of emergency or disasters or otherwise unusual situations like this, not every country is the US with its hyperbolic aversion to government or the state. The same bad takes keep happening every time an Anglosphere journalist sees the Gendarmerie on a French street.

ThomPete 5y ago
Of course the military is used for other means. This time just isn't one of them and thus my point still stands. When you have to use military to enforce your policies you've lost the plot it's really that simple.
vladvasiliu 5y ago
> The same bad takes keep happening every time an Anglosphere journalist sees the Gendarmerie on a French street. I'm not familiar with the "bad takes" happening in the Anglosphere, but it should be noted that the French Gendarmerie is not exactly the same thing as "the military". Until recently they were, technically, military, as in they were attached to the Defense Ministry. This has changed a few years ago, and are now attached to the Interior (Home) Ministry, like the "regular" Police. But this isn't what I'm arguing. Even before the change, the Gendarmerie was intended to police the citizens, even though they would sometime take part in external operations. They are basically "the police outside of cities". This is in contrast to the "regular military" whose goal is to operate outside of France. What is unusual is the "Operation Sentinelle", where actual soldiers are patrolling the streets of French cities in an effort to fight terrorism. But note that pretty much every action by the actual military inside of France is seen as exceptional, and there really aren't that many. For example, during the height of the Covid crisis last year, when hospitals were overflowing with the sick, the military transported some people from one hospital to another. This was considered fairly out of the ordinary, much more so than the national rail company preparing special TGVs (high-speed trains) for the same.

waste_monk 5y ago

They're being used to supplement the police force during a state of emergency. It's absolutely an appropriate use of the ADF.

ThomPete 5y ago
they are being used to enforce something you might think is appropriate, but something huge parts of the world including many Australians don’t think there is a moral basis for which is in part why they have to use the military. So you and i just have different moral compasses it seems. Enforcing your will by boots on the neck is a sign you are doing something wrong.
- nmcveity 5y ago
  Why would the rest of the world get a say in what the ADF is used for? isn't that precisely the point of a military?
  - ThomPete 5y ago
    The rest of the world is entitled to opinions about what the ADF is being used for. If you think this is the point of the military then we just have two very different opinions about what it says about a governments ability to manage the mess they made themselves. The use of coercion is a sign you've failed regardless of the outcome.
    - waste_monk 5y ago
      >If you think this is the point of the military then we just have two very different opinions about what it says about a governments ability to manage the mess they made themselves. The ADF's stated mission is "to defend Australia and its national interests in order to advance Australia's security and prosperity.", and further goes on to state one of it's purposes is to "defend Australia and its national interests through the conduct of operations and provision of support for the Australian community and civilian authorities in accordance with Government direction." Supporting state government and local police during a time of declared emergency is clearly within that scope. Further, the ADF personnel deployed to assist with the lockdown will not be armed and will not have law enforcement powers - each ADF member will be paired with a regular police officer, and the police will be performing checks as they have for the last however many months [2]. This is simply to alleviate staffing and logistical issues, and is entirely ordinary. No one's getting a rifle squad kicking down their door because they didn't wear a mask. >The use of coercion is a sign you've failed regardless of the outcome. There is no coercion, and the whole point of the lockdowns are to prevent failure (that is, uncontrolled community transmission of COVID). [1] https://www1.defence.gov.au/about/at-a-glance https://www1.defence.gov.au/about/at-a-glance [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/adf-soldiers-to-arrive-in-sydney-covid19-lockdown/100336124 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/adf-soldiers-to-arriv... - quote extract from NSW Police Commissioner Mick Fuller