3 ms·

Boy, I really don't know. I've actually enjoyed using Objective-C and Cocoa when used for Mac OS/iOS development (the dynamicity of Smalltalk data structures w

by cpr 15y ago

Boy, I really don't know. I've actually enjoyed using Objective-C and Cocoa when used for Mac OS/iOS development (the dynamicity of Smalltalk data structures with the control flow of C), but I don't think I'd ever voluntarily choose it outside that context. Too verbose, too fragile.

mvzink 15y ago
Fragile? Compared to what? Not going to argue with verbose though, and I also wouldn't choose it for web apps.
- cpr 15y ago
  It's C, for heaven's sake. ;) Compared to any dynamic / memory-safe language in history. Oh, I don't know--Perl, Python, Ruby, Javascript, Lisp, Haskell, oh, and Java, I s'pose.
  - mvzink 15y ago
    I can't bring myself to think of C as being fragile. Fragile is exactly the word I use for Perl, Python, Ruby, and Javascript. Lisp and Haskell, and maybe Java, are the only ones on your list I would say are more robust than C or Objective-C. I guess it's a difference of opinion, or maybe just bad experiences with other people's code. Besides that, you mention dynamic-ness and memory-safety: these are exactly the two places where Objective-C is miles ahead of C! I don't even know what to say.
stephth 15y ago
Objective-c could be a good fit for web development, unlike c++ it's dynamic, unlike ruby it's fast, and it's runtime and libraries are solid (its verbosity is a downer). and I say could, because it's crippled by the fact that half of its strength - the full runtime and libraries - is proprietary, closed source and platform specific. It puzzles me that Apple cripples its adoption this way. Yes, I'm aware of CFLite, cocotron and GNUstep, I don't think any of these solve the problem.
kenferry 15y ago
What do you think is different about Mac OS/iOS context vs others that makes Cocoa's approach more or less appropriate?
- statictype 15y ago
  I'm not convinced that Cocoa and Objective-C are the best approach for anything. The only reason I use them is because they're what you have to use to make good apps on OSX/iOS. There are debates on both sides when it comes to things like ruby-vs-python-vs-node or rails/django/aspmvc and reasonable people can take opposing views on those. I don't see much of a case for Objective-C/Cocoa being a better language and platform than any of the others except for the fact that it's the only one we've got. (And yes, maybe I'm being unreasonable on this)
  - kenferry 15y ago
    Any chance of being able to distill concrete reasons why other environments are better?
    - statictype 15y ago
      The verbosity of the Objective-C language (and related Cocoa libraries) and manual memory management are the biggest reasons. It's not a bad environment and has a certain weird elegance to it, but I would venture that very few people would use it if not for the fact that it's the defacto development environment for doing OSX/iOS development.

by cpr 15y ago

mvzink 15y ago

Fragile? Compared to what? Not going to argue with verbose though, and I also wouldn't choose it for web apps.

cpr 15y ago
It's C, for heaven's sake. ;) Compared to any dynamic / memory-safe language in history. Oh, I don't know--Perl, Python, Ruby, Javascript, Lisp, Haskell, oh, and Java, I s'pose.
- mvzink 15y ago
  I can't bring myself to think of C as being fragile. Fragile is exactly the word I use for Perl, Python, Ruby, and Javascript. Lisp and Haskell, and maybe Java, are the only ones on your list I would say are more robust than C or Objective-C. I guess it's a difference of opinion, or maybe just bad experiences with other people's code. Besides that, you mention dynamic-ness and memory-safety: these are exactly the two places where Objective-C is miles ahead of C! I don't even know what to say.

stephth 15y ago

Objective-c could be a good fit for web development, unlike c++ it's dynamic, unlike ruby it's fast, and it's runtime and libraries are solid (its verbosity is a downer). and I say could, because it's crippled by the fact that half of its strength - the full runtime and libraries - is proprietary, closed source and platform specific. It puzzles me that Apple cripples its adoption this way. Yes, I'm aware of CFLite, cocotron and GNUstep, I don't think any of these solve the problem.

kenferry 15y ago

What do you think is different about Mac OS/iOS context vs others that makes Cocoa's approach more or less appropriate?

statictype 15y ago
I'm not convinced that Cocoa and Objective-C are the best approach for anything. The only reason I use them is because they're what you have to use to make good apps on OSX/iOS. There are debates on both sides when it comes to things like ruby-vs-python-vs-node or rails/django/aspmvc and reasonable people can take opposing views on those. I don't see much of a case for Objective-C/Cocoa being a better language and platform than any of the others except for the fact that it's the only one we've got. (And yes, maybe I'm being unreasonable on this)
- kenferry 15y ago
  Any chance of being able to distill concrete reasons why other environments are better?
  - statictype 15y ago
    The verbosity of the Objective-C language (and related Cocoa libraries) and manual memory management are the biggest reasons. It's not a bad environment and has a certain weird elegance to it, but I would venture that very few people would use it if not for the fact that it's the defacto development environment for doing OSX/iOS development.