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Nobody lives in a "truly free society". This is one of these stupid American inventions that I wish would die because it's so obviously wrong—and so obviously i

Nobody lives in a "truly free society". This is one of these stupid American inventions that I wish would die because it's so obviously wrong—and so obviously incomplete as an intellectual concept. Everyone's fate is ultimately and inextricably intertwined with the actions of their neighbours. You can either be "truly free," or you can be a member of society. You can't be both. Here in my home country of Australia, a society which arguably has more freedom than in America[0][1][2][3] we require children to be vaccinated in order for them to attend childcare and primary education. This is because most of us recognise that sending our children into an environment which has strong herd immunity to serious disease like measles is itself a form of freedom. We've traded one freedom (which we didn't want anyway) for a much better freedom. In America, you have the freedom to have your access to quality healthcare determined by your bank balance. And you have the freedom to live in a community where everyone around you has their access to healthcare determined by their bank balance. If that's freedom, I don't want it. [0] No civil asset forfeiture. No gerrymandering. No capital punishment. Fewer citizens incarcerated. Less student debt. Near-zero medical debt. No PATRIOT Act. Freedom from gun violence. Paid parental leave. Elections held on weekends. [1] "Conservative" economic freedom? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom [2] "Liberal" personal freedom? https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freest-countries https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freest-co... [3] However you want to slice it, we're freer than you. https://www.prosperity.com/rankings https://www.prosperity.com/rankings

deleted 5y ago
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macinjosh 5y ago
> You can either be "truly free," or you can be a member of society. You can't be both. Says who? I am one of the, according to you, stupid Americans who loves and demands freedom. I am forced to live in society and I am forced to participate by paying taxes. I don’t want your shot or your schools or your healthcare. I want to be left alone. You may think I am stupid but I think you are too.
- simondotau 5y ago
  > one of the, according to you, stupid Americans I never said "stupid Americans." You have the freedom to misrepresent my words, but you don't have the freedom to actually change what I wrote, which remains published above. > I am forced to live in society No, you want to live in society. Society is where the hamburgers are; it's where the Internet is; it's where the houses with pipes delivering an endless bounty of water and electricity are; it's where the Hacker News comments section is. Being part of a society means, to some extent, accepting that many things which affect you every day are outside of your control and will be decided by someone else. Someone decided that you have to be licensed in order to drive a car. You didn't decide that. Your freedom to drive a car (cars being a product of collective society) along roads (also a product of collective society) is determined by the collective will of society—and enforced by the collective will of society. > I want to be left alone. No, you want the benefits of society without being a contributor to it. You're just cherry picking the bits you like without care for long term stability of the whole. Society is fragile. And without it we have far less of the things which—if you're honest with yourself—matter to you far more than your affluent, plushy concept of "freedom."
  - macinjosh 5y ago
    The phrase "stupid american" is in your post. > No, you want to live in society. You don't know what I want. > Being part of a society means, to some extent, accepting that many things which affect you every day are outside of your control and will be decided by someone else. No it doesn't. You have shown zero proof to back up this statement. It is 100% completely possible to have a completely voluntary society. There is no reason force needs to be used to have a society. It even has a name: anarchy. This is just the way your world view has been shaped by the status quo and where you grew up. Your mind is closed friend. Society doesn't require government. > No, you want the benefits of society without being a contributor to it. Again, you don't know me or what I want.
    - simondotau 5y ago
      > The phrase "stupid american" is in your post. You have the freedom to misrepresent my words, but you don't have the freedom to actually change what I wrote, which remains published above. > Society doesn't require government. I never said society requires government. Only that it requires collective decision-making. You could require all collective decisions to require 100% agreement among all members, but then you'd achieve little to nothing.
forcry 5y ago
I want the freedom to evaluate a product from what I see around me, and decide if I should use it. It is quite simple. If it is beyond me to evaluate the product, I would look at people who are capable that I trust, to evaluate it for me. So this is the basic principle in this context. I should be free to choose who I trust. Just because I trust someone, shouldn't mean you must trust them as well. But with these mandates, the implication is that every one should trust a certain bunch of people. And that is the freedom of choice that is really being taken away from the people.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

macinjosh 5y ago

> You can either be "truly free," or you can be a member of society. You can't be both. Says who? I am one of the, according to you, stupid Americans who loves and demands freedom. I am forced to live in society and I am forced to participate by paying taxes. I don’t want your shot or your schools or your healthcare. I want to be left alone. You may think I am stupid but I think you are too.

simondotau 5y ago
> one of the, according to you, stupid Americans I never said "stupid Americans." You have the freedom to misrepresent my words, but you don't have the freedom to actually change what I wrote, which remains published above. > I am forced to live in society No, you want to live in society. Society is where the hamburgers are; it's where the Internet is; it's where the houses with pipes delivering an endless bounty of water and electricity are; it's where the Hacker News comments section is. Being part of a society means, to some extent, accepting that many things which affect you every day are outside of your control and will be decided by someone else. Someone decided that you have to be licensed in order to drive a car. You didn't decide that. Your freedom to drive a car (cars being a product of collective society) along roads (also a product of collective society) is determined by the collective will of society—and enforced by the collective will of society. > I want to be left alone. No, you want the benefits of society without being a contributor to it. You're just cherry picking the bits you like without care for long term stability of the whole. Society is fragile. And without it we have far less of the things which—if you're honest with yourself—matter to you far more than your affluent, plushy concept of "freedom."
- macinjosh 5y ago
  The phrase "stupid american" is in your post. > No, you want to live in society. You don't know what I want. > Being part of a society means, to some extent, accepting that many things which affect you every day are outside of your control and will be decided by someone else. No it doesn't. You have shown zero proof to back up this statement. It is 100% completely possible to have a completely voluntary society. There is no reason force needs to be used to have a society. It even has a name: anarchy. This is just the way your world view has been shaped by the status quo and where you grew up. Your mind is closed friend. Society doesn't require government. > No, you want the benefits of society without being a contributor to it. Again, you don't know me or what I want.
  - simondotau 5y ago
    > The phrase "stupid american" is in your post. You have the freedom to misrepresent my words, but you don't have the freedom to actually change what I wrote, which remains published above. > Society doesn't require government. I never said society requires government. Only that it requires collective decision-making. You could require all collective decisions to require 100% agreement among all members, but then you'd achieve little to nothing.

forcry 5y ago

I want the freedom to evaluate a product from what I see around me, and decide if I should use it. It is quite simple. If it is beyond me to evaluate the product, I would look at people who are capable that I trust, to evaluate it for me. So this is the basic principle in this context. I should be free to choose who I trust. Just because I trust someone, shouldn't mean you must trust them as well. But with these mandates, the implication is that every one should trust a certain bunch of people. And that is the freedom of choice that is really being taken away from the people.