5 ms·

Depends on the culture. People like Musk or Jobs wouldn't last 5 minutes as CEO in my country. Everyone will just move to a non toxic workplace.

abz10 5y ago
You mean Germany?
dQw4w9WgXcQ 5y ago
> Everyone will just move to a non toxic workplace. This is a silly notion that ignores the fact that there are plenty of people who are both capable and want to work for leaders like Jobs/Musk. Nobody forces anyone to work the hard hours at these companies, and the complainers who don't make it are usually all you hear about since the individuals driving toward the mission are busy doing just that. It's like Navy SEALS, you take any random selection of 1000 people, ask them how much they believe in the mission, and then put them into the sieve and see which ones have the chops to make it. Drill instructors would be called "toxic" too, but that's the entire point of the filtering function.
- ajcp 5y ago
  I remember when the WashPo was publishing all the articles about Amazon workers pulling 12 hour days and crying at their desks. All I could think of at the time was "wow, sounds like a mission oriented place, I would love to work there." Of course Amazon has made it their mission to not hire me, but still.
- tluyben2 5y ago
  Not sure if it is binary as the gp says, but it seems people do take more shit in the US for a shot at wealth. In NL at least, I know that most people I know (and most are well off, but not millionairs) will and have walked if their manager talks to them in the wrong tone of voice. In the 80s you still had hard ass vs empathic managers : it now shifted very much to the latter and the former is generally considered strange and indeed toxic. I guess this has less to do with the culture (the culture was more or less the same in the 80s and 90s in many countries when I did work for hard ass drill sergeant shouters as CEOs in both NL and DE: I even was one for 5 years until I noticed that it pained me as much as it did the people working for me) than with the realization, which seems to be in a large part of the EU now, that you basically do not have to do any of it: the social net allows to do mostly whatever you want. Sure you will not be able to drive lambos, but that is also considered silly (and a bit sad) in most places here anyway. But you won't starve here if you do not bend over and take it. Covid sped up this realization again: what are you doing it all for if you lose your good years working like an animal and take abuse to boot?
duxup 5y ago
My attitude towards really outspoken and / or in your face-ish CEOs has changed over the years. With the obvious caveat that I never worked with anyone like Musk or Jobs, nor do I know what they were really like / thinking. I worked with some folks who were notorious at companies for challenging people, speaking forcefully and so on. More subdued folks like myself and others really hated them. But most if I got to know weren't jerks, they weren't challenging you personally as a person. They were trying to push you, see if you'd push back, professionally. The folks I worked with would take it very personally, and understandably a lot of people do. Yet the other folks who excelled under those leaders, they let it roll off their back and just got back to it. I've had more than one conversation of "He didn't say you suck... he didn't like where you put a button." Some of those guys who challenged people WANTED push back, they wanted to see the other person really disagreed and had their own vision. When that would happen, often they would get the go ahead to do that thing... One day I was honestly just tired and said something that sounded like I was pushing back pretty hard and the response "Ok then we'll go that route.". That was it, conversation over . To that individual willingness to push back in the face of opposition up the food chain meant you really believed / knew what you were doing. Musk or Jobs, I've no idea, but in a world where I agree there's way too much toxicity, sometimes I see folks label any challenge as toxic and they don't realize that it's ok to disagree, and sometimes those folks want that.
- theyarejust 5y ago
  As a passive person it took me several years to learn how to push back and I deal with people who regularly challenge me and I push back and challenge them. PM says deadline is not movable, I say I think you can make it happen. And we have a balance in power. I never worked with Jobs or Musk, but from stories I read about them, they are straight up bullies and sociopaths. Musk told a guy who took one day off to attend birth of his first born to get his priorities straight. That is not normal.
- danielmarkbruce 5y ago
  I'm pushy (not deliberately) and seem like a jerk to some people. I've spoken to a few folks like myself and the consensus seems to be we all wanted pushback but it really wasn't for any other reason than we wanted to hear good ideas/thoughts. Pushy people probably all lack a little empathy because we only care about the topic at hand. In your example - it doesn't occur to many people (me..) that saying "i don't like where that button is" suggests anything more than that specific thing.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Overton-Window 5y ago
I can imagine the state of your country if Musk and Jobs would be considered toxic there.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
seriousquestion 5y ago
Does your country really not have people that would love to work at SpaceX?

abz10 5y ago

You mean Germany?

dQw4w9WgXcQ 5y ago

> Everyone will just move to a non toxic workplace. This is a silly notion that ignores the fact that there are plenty of people who are both capable and want to work for leaders like Jobs/Musk. Nobody forces anyone to work the hard hours at these companies, and the complainers who don't make it are usually all you hear about since the individuals driving toward the mission are busy doing just that. It's like Navy SEALS, you take any random selection of 1000 people, ask them how much they believe in the mission, and then put them into the sieve and see which ones have the chops to make it. Drill instructors would be called "toxic" too, but that's the entire point of the filtering function.

ajcp 5y ago
I remember when the WashPo was publishing all the articles about Amazon workers pulling 12 hour days and crying at their desks. All I could think of at the time was "wow, sounds like a mission oriented place, I would love to work there." Of course Amazon has made it their mission to not hire me, but still.
tluyben2 5y ago
Not sure if it is binary as the gp says, but it seems people do take more shit in the US for a shot at wealth. In NL at least, I know that most people I know (and most are well off, but not millionairs) will and have walked if their manager talks to them in the wrong tone of voice. In the 80s you still had hard ass vs empathic managers : it now shifted very much to the latter and the former is generally considered strange and indeed toxic. I guess this has less to do with the culture (the culture was more or less the same in the 80s and 90s in many countries when I did work for hard ass drill sergeant shouters as CEOs in both NL and DE: I even was one for 5 years until I noticed that it pained me as much as it did the people working for me) than with the realization, which seems to be in a large part of the EU now, that you basically do not have to do any of it: the social net allows to do mostly whatever you want. Sure you will not be able to drive lambos, but that is also considered silly (and a bit sad) in most places here anyway. But you won't starve here if you do not bend over and take it. Covid sped up this realization again: what are you doing it all for if you lose your good years working like an animal and take abuse to boot?

duxup 5y ago

My attitude towards really outspoken and / or in your face-ish CEOs has changed over the years. With the obvious caveat that I never worked with anyone like Musk or Jobs, nor do I know what they were really like / thinking. I worked with some folks who were notorious at companies for challenging people, speaking forcefully and so on. More subdued folks like myself and others really hated them. But most if I got to know weren't jerks, they weren't challenging you personally as a person. They were trying to push you, see if you'd push back, professionally. The folks I worked with would take it very personally, and understandably a lot of people do. Yet the other folks who excelled under those leaders, they let it roll off their back and just got back to it. I've had more than one conversation of "He didn't say you suck... he didn't like where you put a button." Some of those guys who challenged people WANTED push back, they wanted to see the other person really disagreed and had their own vision. When that would happen, often they would get the go ahead to do that thing... One day I was honestly just tired and said something that sounded like I was pushing back pretty hard and the response "Ok then we'll go that route.". That was it, conversation over . To that individual willingness to push back in the face of opposition up the food chain meant you really believed / knew what you were doing. Musk or Jobs, I've no idea, but in a world where I agree there's way too much toxicity, sometimes I see folks label any challenge as toxic and they don't realize that it's ok to disagree, and sometimes those folks want that.

theyarejust 5y ago
As a passive person it took me several years to learn how to push back and I deal with people who regularly challenge me and I push back and challenge them. PM says deadline is not movable, I say I think you can make it happen. And we have a balance in power. I never worked with Jobs or Musk, but from stories I read about them, they are straight up bullies and sociopaths. Musk told a guy who took one day off to attend birth of his first born to get his priorities straight. That is not normal.
danielmarkbruce 5y ago
I'm pushy (not deliberately) and seem like a jerk to some people. I've spoken to a few folks like myself and the consensus seems to be we all wanted pushback but it really wasn't for any other reason than we wanted to hear good ideas/thoughts. Pushy people probably all lack a little empathy because we only care about the topic at hand. In your example - it doesn't occur to many people (me..) that saying "i don't like where that button is" suggests anything more than that specific thing.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Overton-Window 5y ago

I can imagine the state of your country if Musk and Jobs would be considered toxic there.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

seriousquestion 5y ago

Does your country really not have people that would love to work at SpaceX?