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Is this Hacker News? I suppose it might be tied to our theme by the story of the inventor. I think it's a shame that the US federal government has ballooned th

by lhnn 15y ago

Is this Hacker News? I suppose it might be tied to our theme by the story of the inventor. I think it's a shame that the US federal government has ballooned the way it has, and I believe it's a slap in the face of the Constitution. Discarding the concept of mens rea while maintaining more than 250,000 pages of regulation is malicious, and anyone supporting this movement is not someone who should be in political power.

brazzy 15y ago
What I don't understand (as a non-US-citizen, mind you) is how the fact that these are federal laws is relevant at all. It sounds to me like the problem is the number of obscure laws, the vagueness of the offenses, and the lack of mens rea requirement. Surely it would be just as bad if these were state laws (for the citizens of that state, anyway)? Or are there for some reason no state laws of that kind? If so, what could be the reason?
- jeangenie 15y ago
  IANAL but it's bad for citizens because it gives federal courts wider purview on what they'll prosecute for and how they punish for it; needless to say, if your case is getting pushed to federal courts you're fucked, especially when you're being charged under statutes you've never heard of rather than state laws which you may or may not know.
  - brazzy 15y ago
    Not "needless to say" at all. Why are you more fucked in a federal court than in a state court? Why would you be more likely to have never heard of a given federal statue than a given state law?
- lhnn 15y ago
  >It sounds to me like the problem is the number of obscure laws, the vagueness of the offenses, and the lack of mens rea requirement. You're right. There is another issue, though, relating to the massive power of the central government. --- Amendment X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. --- The US was designed to be a Federal system, with all non-delegated powers belonging to the states, not the central government. Besides the fact that our nation is meant to have a small Federal government, it is easier to manipulate and fight unjust laws at lower levels of government than the behemoth that is Washington, DC.
- Zak 15y ago
  As a US citizen, I find the diminishing mens rea requirements very disturbing. One should never be guilty of a crime despite making a reasonable effort to avoid the illegal behavior. To give an example, in Florida, one is guilty of a felony for having sex with a person under 18 (if the older person is 24 or older) no matter how reasonable it might have been to believe the person was of legal age. A forged driver's licence that would fool the DMV and get the bartender off is no defense here; it's a strict liability crime. I would favor a Constitutional amendment blocking the enforcement of any criminal law that did not include a culpable mental state for every element of the crime. To implement such a change without crippling the legal system, it could make the default mental state criminal negligence if none is given.
- a3camero 15y ago
  IANAA (I am not an American) but it's an important aspect of the American legal system (as well as a political issue about state vs. federal government in the US). Here's a chart that shows the differences between the state and federal legal systems: http://www.uscourts.gov/EducationalResources/FederalCourtBasics/CourtStructure/ComparingFederalAndStateCourts.aspx.There http://www.uscourts.gov/EducationalResources/FederalCourtBas... are many differences.

by lhnn 15y ago

brazzy 15y ago

What I don't understand (as a non-US-citizen, mind you) is how the fact that these are federal laws is relevant at all. It sounds to me like the problem is the number of obscure laws, the vagueness of the offenses, and the lack of mens rea requirement. Surely it would be just as bad if these were state laws (for the citizens of that state, anyway)? Or are there for some reason no state laws of that kind? If so, what could be the reason?

jeangenie 15y ago
IANAL but it's bad for citizens because it gives federal courts wider purview on what they'll prosecute for and how they punish for it; needless to say, if your case is getting pushed to federal courts you're fucked, especially when you're being charged under statutes you've never heard of rather than state laws which you may or may not know.
- brazzy 15y ago
  Not "needless to say" at all. Why are you more fucked in a federal court than in a state court? Why would you be more likely to have never heard of a given federal statue than a given state law?
lhnn 15y ago
>It sounds to me like the problem is the number of obscure laws, the vagueness of the offenses, and the lack of mens rea requirement. You're right. There is another issue, though, relating to the massive power of the central government. --- Amendment X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. --- The US was designed to be a Federal system, with all non-delegated powers belonging to the states, not the central government. Besides the fact that our nation is meant to have a small Federal government, it is easier to manipulate and fight unjust laws at lower levels of government than the behemoth that is Washington, DC.
Zak 15y ago
As a US citizen, I find the diminishing mens rea requirements very disturbing. One should never be guilty of a crime despite making a reasonable effort to avoid the illegal behavior. To give an example, in Florida, one is guilty of a felony for having sex with a person under 18 (if the older person is 24 or older) no matter how reasonable it might have been to believe the person was of legal age. A forged driver's licence that would fool the DMV and get the bartender off is no defense here; it's a strict liability crime. I would favor a Constitutional amendment blocking the enforcement of any criminal law that did not include a culpable mental state for every element of the crime. To implement such a change without crippling the legal system, it could make the default mental state criminal negligence if none is given.
a3camero 15y ago
IANAA (I am not an American) but it's an important aspect of the American legal system (as well as a political issue about state vs. federal government in the US). Here's a chart that shows the differences between the state and federal legal systems: http://www.uscourts.gov/EducationalResources/FederalCourtBasics/CourtStructure/ComparingFederalAndStateCourts.aspx.There http://www.uscourts.gov/EducationalResources/FederalCourtBas... are many differences.