7 ms·

CATL Unveils First Generation of Sodium-Ion Batteries

76 points by MaKey 5y ago

MaKey 5y ago
Key data: - Cathode material: Prussian white - up to 160Wh/kg (2nd generation targets 200Wh/kg) - can charge in 15 minutes to 80% SOC at room temperature - 90% capacity at -20°C - Pricing estimates: 26-46$/kWh at GWh production scale, 77$/kWh at smaller production scale [0] [0] https://twitter.com/DKurac/status/1402854199080099841 https://twitter.com/DKurac/status/1402854199080099841
- dd36 5y ago
  So stationary?
  - MaKey 5y ago
    Tesla already builds Model 3s with LFP batteries which the announced 2nd generation of CATL Sodium-Ion Batteries will be comparable to in terms of capacity. So not only stationary.
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      Presumably the LFP batteries will still have quite an advantage in terms of density.
      - ajross 5y ago
        Not huge, if these numbers hold up. On paper this for sure looks like a really competitive technology, especially for grid storage and solar backup kind of applications. But we'll see.
- mrfusion 5y ago
  Sounds competitive with Lion and possibly cheaper? What’s the catch?
  - russli1993 5y ago
    density still lower than li batteries at 300wh/kg will probably never overtake li ion batteries. But sodium is much more widely available than lithium, and it doesn't need cobalt.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      300wh/kg is not where we will ever see any conventional lithium battery chemistry get. Best mainstream cells cars are made with today are all around 200wh/kg. 240wh/kg NCM cells are there, more or less widely available, but they are almost the same stuff with higher rating, and lower cycle life. Manufacturers basically nudging digits. If they reach same 200wh/kg, along with equal cycle life to LFP, it can be big.
      - sumtechguy 5y ago
        If they can get them comparable in weight and power this could be neat for size size reasons. For the same weight but ~1/4th the size is interesting.
      - russli1993 5y ago
        yeah, I think the big information is CATL is industrializing NA ion batteries and specifically calling out supply chain partners to do so. Its one thing to have a lab result, another thing to industrializing, forming upper stream supply chain and its own manufacturing capacity. The latter will need serious cash, time and human resource investments. CATL is a public traded company, margins, revenue is crucial. They also have pretty good lithium ion NCM and LFP batteries, and are researching solid state Li batteries so they know a thing about battery chemistries. They also in pretty serious competition with other battery makers and supplies big name car brands. So for them to throw their own cash at this new technology means they see long term advantages. I think time will tell what it will end up with.
  - akiselev 5y ago
    The second anyone starts to order it in sizable quantities like for a utility installation or auto production run the prices spike and don’t recover until they hit competitive scale (best case) or some yet unknown scientific breakthrough (worst), all the while trying to catch up to LiIon.
- baybal2 5y ago
  > - Cathode material: Prussian white Ferrocyanides — not the cheapest compound to synthesize
  - ajross 5y ago
    That's what I'm interested in. And yes, it does seem that the use of the artist's pigment name seems intended to obscure the fact that this is a complicated material. Any solid state chemists here who can enlighten us?
    - philipkglass 5y ago
      Ferrocyanide anion has a complicated looking structure but it is easy to synthesize. The input materials are hydrogen cyanide (cheaply produced from methane and ammonia via the Andrussow process), calcium hydroxide, and iron(II) chloride. Combined, they form ferrocyanide. Despite the toxic hydrogen cyanide used in production, ferrocyanides are nontoxic because the cyanide is so tightly bound to iron. Potassium ferrocyanide is used as an anticaking agent in table salt. I have made Prussian blue before by roasting dried blood (organic fertilizer) with sodium hydroxide, extracting with water, and letting it partially oxidize in air. Blood provides both iron and nitrogen. This was an industrial process, historically, before artificial nitrogen fixation.
      - baybal2 5y ago
        Indeed, I instantly recalled the same "blood and sodium hydroxide" stuff from high school chemistry class, and thought of it still being a thing. It doesn't seem to be too expensive, nor too cheap: https://www.alibaba.com/products/sodium_ferrocyanide/CID8020399.html?IndexArea=product_en&pid=PID605_0000_0101 https://www.alibaba.com/products/sodium_ferrocyanide/CID8020...
- algo_trader 5y ago
  LFP is reported at ~$80/kwh for large Chinese buyers. Are those figures accurate? Sure its good to have alternatives, but seems LFP will takeover the world except for the premium uses (especially as we get chargers everywhere).
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > LFP is reported at ~$80/kwh for large Chinese buyers. Are those figures accurate? Yes, automotive buyers were having it for less than $100 per kWh for at least 5 years now. Still not sure for which density range these prices are. 190wh/kg LFP cells are now available in retail, and 200wh/kg been around for at least 2 years for automotive, and been used in EV busses from a few manufacturers. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that biggest, and longest term contracts can get it to $60 per kWh. Lowest end, storage class LFPs must also be quite cheap in lower volumes, and haven't looked at them for a long time.
    - matmatmatmat 5y ago
      Genuine question, as a private individual looking into residential storage, what kind $/kWh should I be expecting if I could get the system and install it myself, and why is it so much higher than the big manufacturers? Is it just volume?
      - baybal2 5y ago
        The volume, and shipping hurdles are sure a part of thing, but there are persistent speculation about nearly every battery maker putting no resale clause on the contract, and enforcing them zealously to keep retail prices high, so their distributors can make a buck. Depending on your size. Inverter prices vary most dramatically for minor features, and options. For batteries only, with shipping, and duties, think of a double of alibaba.com price.
    - algo_trader 5y ago
      And yet Tesla Megapack volume priced at $280/kwh [1], for 2023 delivery! Argh. Where is the big cost? AC convertion? the cooling? pack isolation and protection ? The special logo ? [1] https://electrek.co/2021/07/26/tesla-reveals-megapack-prices/ https://electrek.co/2021/07/26/tesla-reveals-megapack-prices...
fnord77 5y ago
so I'm a bit confused - lithium has a higher electronegativity than sodium. why bother with sodium at all? cost ?
- jeffbee 5y ago
  They don't sell it very well on this page, do they? The weird diagram at the bottom seems to highlight faster charging and better low-temperature performance. I don't know if the world is clamoring for those. Perhaps also the ready availability of sodium compared to lithium?
  - ehnto 5y ago
    Cars are somewhat taken for granted in their ability to work in a wide temperature gamut, so I think improving extreme cold performance is something needed to make sure they stay on par or outperform internal combustion engines. As well, heavy industries around the world are looking at ways to electrify their fleets of vehicles working in remote sometimes extreme weather sites. This includes mining sites and marine operations, even consider that airplanes are an eventual target for EV. Also, charge speed is would surely be the number one gripe for EV ownership, range and performance is pretty much comparable to modern ICE but charge speed, not even close.
    - kwhitefoot 5y ago
      > charge speed is would surely be the number one gripe for EV ownership As far as I can tell this mostly only a concern among those who do not own an EV.
      - steveBK123 5y ago
        Yes, exactly. It's the big bugbear of non-EV owners, but generally irrelevant to actual EV owners. Charger network size, reliability, locations, and pricing matters more. I am also not amongst the superhumans on the internet who can drive 300mi without my bladder/stomach/legs crying out for a break first. Being in NYC, the first hour of every trip is at 20mph, the second hour is average about 50mph, and then only if I am going beyond 70mi do I start to hit average speed about 60mph. Supercharging for ~100mi on the highway is a parallel operation to your bathroom/food break, so its 10 minutes you were already going to use. Gas fill ups are 5 minute serial operations that you either do before or after using the rest area. I suppose if you were on a cannonball run, you could pee in a bottle while pumping gas but I think we can exclude that edge case.
SigmundA 5y ago
Every time I see a sodium battery story I get excited and think increase in energy density, then I remember no, thats lithium-sulfur.
- Hypx_ 5y ago
  At some point people will finally realize that hydrogen fuel cells are a type of battery. It’s made from literally water and has the highest possible energy density of any chemical battery.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    As long as I can hook it up to the grid and charge in my garage, that sounds great.
    - Hypx_ 5y ago
      It’s possible. A company called LAVO has made something of that sort.
  - audunw 5y ago
    No, it does not have the highest possible energy density. “Energy density” generally refers to the volumetric energy density, where hydrogen is one of the worse methods of storing energy. Hydrogen has the best “specific energy density” or gravimetric energy density, IF it is compressed. You should include both if you want to be accurate. This is why hydrogen has lost when it comes to cars. Hydrogen has pretty bad energy density to start with, and then you’ve got to store it in cylindrical tanks which is hard to integrate efficiently, and can’t easily be made into a structural member of the car itself. As a “battery” (with fuel cells) , it also doesn’t have great power density. Power comes for free when adding batteries. Every battery added improves power capacity. Not so with hydrogen. You need to add both hydrogen and more fuel cells to get more power. That’s why BEVs is also doing well for racing cars and hyper cars (see pikes peak race for instance) In places where volume and power isn’t important, hydrogen could be promising. Trucks and ships are obvious candidates.
webmobdev 5y ago
From an indian perspective, I'd like something like this to replace the lead-acid batteries we use currently in home UPS system. Lithium ones are too costly right now, and if they can make this cheaper and longer lasting than the gel or lead-acid batteries currently in use, they will have a huge market in India.
- baybal2 5y ago
  I doubt this will be dramatically cheaper than lithium. Lithium itself is fairly cheap considering how little of it a battery has. Basic LFP batteries can be made pretty much in a garage, both cells, and chemicals for cathode/anode. Most LFP cells were actually made exactly like that 10-8 years ago. People mixing cathodes, and anodes on a bucket, somebody smothering them on foil, and then somebody doing winding, packing, welding, and, finally, sealing all by hand.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  I would have thought that by now LFP has mostly overtaken FLA for home use. I can pick up LFP cells for just over $100/kWh, which is about what it costs me to get FLAs, but with far longer lifespan.
  - matmatmatmat 5y ago
    Got a link to where I could pick up those LFP cells for just over $100/kWh?
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      Head over to diysolarforum.com and look for the group buy thread (it's not really a group buy anymore, it's ongoing). I picked up four 280Ah cells for right at $400 (exact amount varies a bit on shipping destination). Rumor has it that shipping has gotten pretty slow in the last few months, however, so you have to be patient. Anyway, that gives you 3.36kW of capacity (assuming a 12V 4S config) for $119/kW. To be fair, it will be slightly more when you price in your BMS of choice.
sunstone 5y ago
Seems like a complementary match for Tesla's 4680 chemistry. Apparently the markets thought so too. It would be outside China though, there's not much to indicate Tesla will be moving 4680's to China any time soon regardless of the chemistry.

76 points by MaKey 5y ago

Key data: - Cathode material: Prussian white - up to 160Wh/kg (2nd generation targets 200Wh/kg) - can charge in 15 minutes to 80% SOC at room temperature - 90% capacity at -20°C - Pricing estimates: 26-46$/kWh at GWh production scale, 77$/kWh at smaller production scale [0] [0] https://twitter.com/DKurac/status/1402854199080099841 https://twitter.com/DKurac/status/1402854199080099841

dd36 5y ago
So stationary?
- MaKey 5y ago
  Tesla already builds Model 3s with LFP batteries which the announced 2nd generation of CATL Sodium-Ion Batteries will be comparable to in terms of capacity. So not only stationary.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    Presumably the LFP batteries will still have quite an advantage in terms of density.
    - ajross 5y ago
      Not huge, if these numbers hold up. On paper this for sure looks like a really competitive technology, especially for grid storage and solar backup kind of applications. But we'll see.
mrfusion 5y ago
Sounds competitive with Lion and possibly cheaper? What’s the catch?
- russli1993 5y ago
  density still lower than li batteries at 300wh/kg will probably never overtake li ion batteries. But sodium is much more widely available than lithium, and it doesn't need cobalt.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    300wh/kg is not where we will ever see any conventional lithium battery chemistry get. Best mainstream cells cars are made with today are all around 200wh/kg. 240wh/kg NCM cells are there, more or less widely available, but they are almost the same stuff with higher rating, and lower cycle life. Manufacturers basically nudging digits. If they reach same 200wh/kg, along with equal cycle life to LFP, it can be big.
    - sumtechguy 5y ago
      If they can get them comparable in weight and power this could be neat for size size reasons. For the same weight but ~1/4th the size is interesting.
    - russli1993 5y ago
      yeah, I think the big information is CATL is industrializing NA ion batteries and specifically calling out supply chain partners to do so. Its one thing to have a lab result, another thing to industrializing, forming upper stream supply chain and its own manufacturing capacity. The latter will need serious cash, time and human resource investments. CATL is a public traded company, margins, revenue is crucial. They also have pretty good lithium ion NCM and LFP batteries, and are researching solid state Li batteries so they know a thing about battery chemistries. They also in pretty serious competition with other battery makers and supplies big name car brands. So for them to throw their own cash at this new technology means they see long term advantages. I think time will tell what it will end up with.
- akiselev 5y ago
  The second anyone starts to order it in sizable quantities like for a utility installation or auto production run the prices spike and don’t recover until they hit competitive scale (best case) or some yet unknown scientific breakthrough (worst), all the while trying to catch up to LiIon.
baybal2 5y ago
> - Cathode material: Prussian white Ferrocyanides — not the cheapest compound to synthesize
- ajross 5y ago
  That's what I'm interested in. And yes, it does seem that the use of the artist's pigment name seems intended to obscure the fact that this is a complicated material. Any solid state chemists here who can enlighten us?
  - philipkglass 5y ago
    Ferrocyanide anion has a complicated looking structure but it is easy to synthesize. The input materials are hydrogen cyanide (cheaply produced from methane and ammonia via the Andrussow process), calcium hydroxide, and iron(II) chloride. Combined, they form ferrocyanide. Despite the toxic hydrogen cyanide used in production, ferrocyanides are nontoxic because the cyanide is so tightly bound to iron. Potassium ferrocyanide is used as an anticaking agent in table salt. I have made Prussian blue before by roasting dried blood (organic fertilizer) with sodium hydroxide, extracting with water, and letting it partially oxidize in air. Blood provides both iron and nitrogen. This was an industrial process, historically, before artificial nitrogen fixation.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      Indeed, I instantly recalled the same "blood and sodium hydroxide" stuff from high school chemistry class, and thought of it still being a thing. It doesn't seem to be too expensive, nor too cheap: https://www.alibaba.com/products/sodium_ferrocyanide/CID8020399.html?IndexArea=product_en&pid=PID605_0000_0101 https://www.alibaba.com/products/sodium_ferrocyanide/CID8020...
algo_trader 5y ago
LFP is reported at ~$80/kwh for large Chinese buyers. Are those figures accurate? Sure its good to have alternatives, but seems LFP will takeover the world except for the premium uses (especially as we get chargers everywhere).
- baybal2 5y ago
  > LFP is reported at ~$80/kwh for large Chinese buyers. Are those figures accurate? Yes, automotive buyers were having it for less than $100 per kWh for at least 5 years now. Still not sure for which density range these prices are. 190wh/kg LFP cells are now available in retail, and 200wh/kg been around for at least 2 years for automotive, and been used in EV busses from a few manufacturers. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that biggest, and longest term contracts can get it to $60 per kWh. Lowest end, storage class LFPs must also be quite cheap in lower volumes, and haven't looked at them for a long time.
  - matmatmatmat 5y ago
    Genuine question, as a private individual looking into residential storage, what kind $/kWh should I be expecting if I could get the system and install it myself, and why is it so much higher than the big manufacturers? Is it just volume?
    - baybal2 5y ago
      The volume, and shipping hurdles are sure a part of thing, but there are persistent speculation about nearly every battery maker putting no resale clause on the contract, and enforcing them zealously to keep retail prices high, so their distributors can make a buck. Depending on your size. Inverter prices vary most dramatically for minor features, and options. For batteries only, with shipping, and duties, think of a double of alibaba.com price.
  - algo_trader 5y ago
    And yet Tesla Megapack volume priced at $280/kwh [1], for 2023 delivery! Argh. Where is the big cost? AC convertion? the cooling? pack isolation and protection ? The special logo ? [1] https://electrek.co/2021/07/26/tesla-reveals-megapack-prices/ https://electrek.co/2021/07/26/tesla-reveals-megapack-prices...

fnord77 5y ago

so I'm a bit confused - lithium has a higher electronegativity than sodium. why bother with sodium at all? cost ?

jeffbee 5y ago
They don't sell it very well on this page, do they? The weird diagram at the bottom seems to highlight faster charging and better low-temperature performance. I don't know if the world is clamoring for those. Perhaps also the ready availability of sodium compared to lithium?
- ehnto 5y ago
  Cars are somewhat taken for granted in their ability to work in a wide temperature gamut, so I think improving extreme cold performance is something needed to make sure they stay on par or outperform internal combustion engines. As well, heavy industries around the world are looking at ways to electrify their fleets of vehicles working in remote sometimes extreme weather sites. This includes mining sites and marine operations, even consider that airplanes are an eventual target for EV. Also, charge speed is would surely be the number one gripe for EV ownership, range and performance is pretty much comparable to modern ICE but charge speed, not even close.
  - kwhitefoot 5y ago
    > charge speed is would surely be the number one gripe for EV ownership As far as I can tell this mostly only a concern among those who do not own an EV.
    - steveBK123 5y ago
      Yes, exactly. It's the big bugbear of non-EV owners, but generally irrelevant to actual EV owners. Charger network size, reliability, locations, and pricing matters more. I am also not amongst the superhumans on the internet who can drive 300mi without my bladder/stomach/legs crying out for a break first. Being in NYC, the first hour of every trip is at 20mph, the second hour is average about 50mph, and then only if I am going beyond 70mi do I start to hit average speed about 60mph. Supercharging for ~100mi on the highway is a parallel operation to your bathroom/food break, so its 10 minutes you were already going to use. Gas fill ups are 5 minute serial operations that you either do before or after using the rest area. I suppose if you were on a cannonball run, you could pee in a bottle while pumping gas but I think we can exclude that edge case.

SigmundA 5y ago

Every time I see a sodium battery story I get excited and think increase in energy density, then I remember no, thats lithium-sulfur.

Hypx_ 5y ago
At some point people will finally realize that hydrogen fuel cells are a type of battery. It’s made from literally water and has the highest possible energy density of any chemical battery.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  As long as I can hook it up to the grid and charge in my garage, that sounds great.
  - Hypx_ 5y ago
    It’s possible. A company called LAVO has made something of that sort.
- audunw 5y ago
  No, it does not have the highest possible energy density. “Energy density” generally refers to the volumetric energy density, where hydrogen is one of the worse methods of storing energy. Hydrogen has the best “specific energy density” or gravimetric energy density, IF it is compressed. You should include both if you want to be accurate. This is why hydrogen has lost when it comes to cars. Hydrogen has pretty bad energy density to start with, and then you’ve got to store it in cylindrical tanks which is hard to integrate efficiently, and can’t easily be made into a structural member of the car itself. As a “battery” (with fuel cells) , it also doesn’t have great power density. Power comes for free when adding batteries. Every battery added improves power capacity. Not so with hydrogen. You need to add both hydrogen and more fuel cells to get more power. That’s why BEVs is also doing well for racing cars and hyper cars (see pikes peak race for instance) In places where volume and power isn’t important, hydrogen could be promising. Trucks and ships are obvious candidates.

webmobdev 5y ago

From an indian perspective, I'd like something like this to replace the lead-acid batteries we use currently in home UPS system. Lithium ones are too costly right now, and if they can make this cheaper and longer lasting than the gel or lead-acid batteries currently in use, they will have a huge market in India.

baybal2 5y ago
I doubt this will be dramatically cheaper than lithium. Lithium itself is fairly cheap considering how little of it a battery has. Basic LFP batteries can be made pretty much in a garage, both cells, and chemicals for cathode/anode. Most LFP cells were actually made exactly like that 10-8 years ago. People mixing cathodes, and anodes on a bucket, somebody smothering them on foil, and then somebody doing winding, packing, welding, and, finally, sealing all by hand.
rootusrootus 5y ago
I would have thought that by now LFP has mostly overtaken FLA for home use. I can pick up LFP cells for just over $100/kWh, which is about what it costs me to get FLAs, but with far longer lifespan.
- matmatmatmat 5y ago
  Got a link to where I could pick up those LFP cells for just over $100/kWh?
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    Head over to diysolarforum.com and look for the group buy thread (it's not really a group buy anymore, it's ongoing). I picked up four 280Ah cells for right at $400 (exact amount varies a bit on shipping destination). Rumor has it that shipping has gotten pretty slow in the last few months, however, so you have to be patient. Anyway, that gives you 3.36kW of capacity (assuming a 12V 4S config) for $119/kW. To be fair, it will be slightly more when you price in your BMS of choice.

sunstone 5y ago

Seems like a complementary match for Tesla's 4680 chemistry. Apparently the markets thought so too. It would be outside China though, there's not much to indicate Tesla will be moving 4680's to China any time soon regardless of the chemistry.