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"threw up in my mouth a little." "Gee, let me get this straight." "Bullshit." "Seriously?" I have to say that one of my regrets about growing up in programme

"threw up in my mouth a little." "Gee, let me get this straight." "Bullshit." "Seriously?" I have to say that one of my regrets about growing up in programmer circles is seeing stuff like this held up as an acceptable example of how adults communicate with other adults. It took me a long time to realize that this style of communication is not necessary, is not effective, and reflects poorly on the speaker. C'mon, this guy appears to be in his 30s or 40s and has written books, so why does he write like he's an angsty teen? (I know Linus does it. I think it's lame when he does it too.) There's still room for humor and snark, here are three of my favorite blog postings/articles ever, all very snarky, but not embarrassingly juvenile: http://wanderingbarque.com/nonintersecting/2006/11/15/the-s-stands-for-simple/ http://wanderingbarque.com/nonintersecting/2006/11/15/the-s-... http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/14/thought_experiment http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/14/thought_experime... http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/decon.html http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/decon.html

rdouble 15y ago
If you're a programmer of a certain vintage, you've been reading writing like this on mailing lists for years. It's easy to think programmers in particular produce embarrassing writing. However, most blogs are written in this style, not just blogs by programmers. This issue is not confined to the internet, or the contemporary age. The editorial page in my hometown's daily paper was not any better. If one reads historical letters to the editor in regional newspapers, you'll find that adults have been communicating in poorly written, juvenile language for centuries .
- sophacles 15y ago
  Not even just regional papers, lower level stuff. It is very very very important to remember in this, that language which sound dignified and mature to us today, is in many cases just vulgar "crap talk" of a previous era. The reason it sounds so fancy and polished to us is because it is old more than because it is good in many cases.
arctangent 15y ago
It's a stylistic flourish and is likely not representative of how he behaves in person. The same can be said for many journalists.
j_baker 15y ago
I suspect this is something you and I will never agree on. You see, I think it reflects poorly on someone to see bullshit and not call the bullshitter out. That doesn't give someone unlimited license to say what they want. It's just that if someone is spewing bullshit, they deserve to be told they're spewing bullshit. And more importantly, people on the receiving end of said bullshit deserve to be told it's bullshit as well.
- haberman 15y ago
  All three of the links I posted were calling out bullshit. But they did it in a way that didn't sound like it came off Jerry Springer. I have a million times more respect for those guys and those guys had far more substance to their criticism too. Just calling "bullshit" rant-style is a cult-of-personality sort of move: people are responding more to your machismo than the actual substance of your argument.
  - j_baker 15y ago
    There's something to be said for being straightforward though. If you can subtly build a flowing narrative that eloquently describes your beliefs without stating them, good for you. I generally do better just by calling a spade a spade, even if it doesn't like being called a spade. Sometimes people don't like that, and I accept it. But in general, I think people trust me because they know there aren't multiple levels of meaning to everything I say. And besides that, what's wrong with cult-of-personality moves? Generally, strictly logical arguments don't get anywhere. I know because I've spent years losing arguments because I couldn't focus on anything but the logic. :-)
neilk 15y ago
This is how adults communicate with one another. You are longing for some era of erudite euphemism that never was and never will be. Blogging is vernacular. Just because you see it in print doesn't mean we have to judge it like an essay from the Saturday Evening Post. If Zawodny's piece was only snark, you might have a point, but he backs it up with solid argumentation. If you paid more attention to his vinegary interjections than the main point, it says more about you than it does him.

rdouble 15y ago

If you're a programmer of a certain vintage, you've been reading writing like this on mailing lists for years. It's easy to think programmers in particular produce embarrassing writing. However, most blogs are written in this style, not just blogs by programmers. This issue is not confined to the internet, or the contemporary age. The editorial page in my hometown's daily paper was not any better. If one reads historical letters to the editor in regional newspapers, you'll find that adults have been communicating in poorly written, juvenile language for centuries .

sophacles 15y ago
Not even just regional papers, lower level stuff. It is very very very important to remember in this, that language which sound dignified and mature to us today, is in many cases just vulgar "crap talk" of a previous era. The reason it sounds so fancy and polished to us is because it is old more than because it is good in many cases.

arctangent 15y ago

It's a stylistic flourish and is likely not representative of how he behaves in person. The same can be said for many journalists.

j_baker 15y ago

I suspect this is something you and I will never agree on. You see, I think it reflects poorly on someone to see bullshit and not call the bullshitter out. That doesn't give someone unlimited license to say what they want. It's just that if someone is spewing bullshit, they deserve to be told they're spewing bullshit. And more importantly, people on the receiving end of said bullshit deserve to be told it's bullshit as well.

haberman 15y ago
All three of the links I posted were calling out bullshit. But they did it in a way that didn't sound like it came off Jerry Springer. I have a million times more respect for those guys and those guys had far more substance to their criticism too. Just calling "bullshit" rant-style is a cult-of-personality sort of move: people are responding more to your machismo than the actual substance of your argument.
- j_baker 15y ago
  There's something to be said for being straightforward though. If you can subtly build a flowing narrative that eloquently describes your beliefs without stating them, good for you. I generally do better just by calling a spade a spade, even if it doesn't like being called a spade. Sometimes people don't like that, and I accept it. But in general, I think people trust me because they know there aren't multiple levels of meaning to everything I say. And besides that, what's wrong with cult-of-personality moves? Generally, strictly logical arguments don't get anywhere. I know because I've spent years losing arguments because I couldn't focus on anything but the logic. :-)

neilk 15y ago

This is how adults communicate with one another. You are longing for some era of erudite euphemism that never was and never will be. Blogging is vernacular. Just because you see it in print doesn't mean we have to judge it like an essay from the Saturday Evening Post. If Zawodny's piece was only snark, you might have a point, but he backs it up with solid argumentation. If you paid more attention to his vinegary interjections than the main point, it says more about you than it does him.