3 ms·

The West isn’t dying – its ideas live on in China

13 points by chippy 5y ago

thedudeabides5 5y ago
TLDR - China is more western than you think, but it inherited the interwar totalitarianism rather than it’s liberalism
- mandmandam 5y ago
  With the subtle side message that the decline of the West is due to "hyper-liberalism" - there's too much PC in the universities, and we're not totalitarian enough. Meanwhile no mention - none - is made of the record inequality across the west. Politicians are rolling in cash from the strip-mining of our health, housing, education, banking, media and environment sectors. Huge swathes of manufacturing have been outsourced while CEOs collect massive bonuses; not mentioned. It's those PC liberals in universities, and their so-woke reticence to burn more coal that's to blame for this. Not the politicians, not the surveillance, not the grossly unjust forever wars that transform money into murder. It's Russian influence crumbling the west, not lobbyists and money and Bilderbergers (I know, Bilderberg is so 2014). This is some of the most devious analysis I've ever seen.
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    >>Huge swathes of manufacturing have been outsourced while CEOs collect massive bonuses; not mentioned. Manufacturing was outsourced because the US became inhospitable to it. The OSHA was created in 1971. The EPA was created in 1973. By the 1960s, the Big Three automakers had been forced via collective bargaining with the UAW into giving exorbitant benefits to their work forces. Any major manufacturer has that to look forward to for their US-based plants.
    - mandmandam 5y ago
      I didn't get into the whys; though certainly any union that systematically undermines public transport needs to be looked at. Mr. Gray talks about the decline of the West; without mentioning inequality, outsourcing, deregulation, or the proven liars that lied us into wars that cost us trillions. Detroit isn't much to do with it.
      - CryptoPunk 5y ago
        The broad trends have been 1. the rise of regulations, reflected in the rise in the number of regulatory agencies, the number of people employed by regulatory agencies, the budget of regulatory agencies, the percentage of occupations requiring an occupational license (5 to 29% between 1950 and today) and the size of the federal code of regulations. Here is just one horror story that comes out of this trend: https://youtu.be/6M3P8sT4IFg https://youtu.be/6M3P8sT4IFg 2. the rise in social spending: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-longrun https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-long... driven largely by the rise of unions and collective bargaining in the public sector
        mandmandam 5y ago
        For the most part, 1 and 2 have been extraordinarily good things for society. Do you want to try and draw the line from investing in people to reduce poverty, sickness, deprivation and starvation to the downfall of the West and rise of totalitarianism? I'm not seeing it. How do unions and regulations even explain corrupt prosecutors, which existed back at the start of your graph, as well as for thousands of years before?
        CryptoPunk 5y ago
        >>Do you want to try and draw the line from investing in people to reduce poverty, sickness, deprivation and starvation to the downfall of the West and rise of totalitarianism? I'm not seeing it. Central economic planning is inefficient. China learned that, and embarked on massive market reforms in 1979: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform As for "investing in people to reduce poverty" etc, in the long-term, people develop their own personal safety nets in a society without a government-sponsored safety net. Economists have studied this phenomenon, and found that societies with low government social welfare spending levels, like many East Asian countries, have high personal savings rates and extended-family-based support networks. This is what you want. You do not want the safety net to be provided by a centralized authority. That creates a fragile economy, like the USSR's, where after the state's bankruptcy and subsequent dissolution, millions who had grown dependent on its safety net died of privation. The incentives are also much much better for productivity when you don't have formulaic and unconditional social support that people can abuse: "you can eat every day and eat well without spending money, then you can use your money to buy your drugs" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyhITqVAugI&feature=youtu.be&t=85 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyhITqVAugI&feature=youtu.be... >>How do unions and regulations even explain corrupt prosecutors, which existed back at the start of your graph, as well as for thousands of years before? As the laws/regulations become more complex, they become easier to run afoul of, and the easier it is for a corrupt prosecutor to find an excuse to persecute someone: "The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state." - Tacitus As regulatory institutions become larger, and more complex, they also become harder for the electorate to keep accountable. They develop their own "institutional interests", which economist Thomas Sowell gives an example of here: https://youtu.be/uiYH66HznW0?t=410 https://youtu.be/uiYH66HznW0?t=410
  - jaldhar 5y ago
    Politicians are overwhelmingly from the credentialed class. See https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2021/01/08/the-college-profile-of-the-new-members-in-the-117th-congress/?sh=7f766a2c3b10 https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2021/01/08/the-... for US data. I expect the skew towards college to be similar in other Western countries. An interesting question is why do so many noble university liberals turn into icky politicians?
    - mandmandam 5y ago
      Because they all know each other. For you and me, college is about learning. For the "elites", it's networking.
Wildgoose 5y ago
An excellent analysis of the issues, but fails to make any suggestions at to what can be done - probably because to do so would only invoke attacks on the author.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

13 points by chippy 5y ago

thedudeabides5 5y ago

TLDR - China is more western than you think, but it inherited the interwar totalitarianism rather than it’s liberalism

mandmandam 5y ago
With the subtle side message that the decline of the West is due to "hyper-liberalism" - there's too much PC in the universities, and we're not totalitarian enough. Meanwhile no mention - none - is made of the record inequality across the west. Politicians are rolling in cash from the strip-mining of our health, housing, education, banking, media and environment sectors. Huge swathes of manufacturing have been outsourced while CEOs collect massive bonuses; not mentioned. It's those PC liberals in universities, and their so-woke reticence to burn more coal that's to blame for this. Not the politicians, not the surveillance, not the grossly unjust forever wars that transform money into murder. It's Russian influence crumbling the west, not lobbyists and money and Bilderbergers (I know, Bilderberg is so 2014). This is some of the most devious analysis I've ever seen.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  >>Huge swathes of manufacturing have been outsourced while CEOs collect massive bonuses; not mentioned. Manufacturing was outsourced because the US became inhospitable to it. The OSHA was created in 1971. The EPA was created in 1973. By the 1960s, the Big Three automakers had been forced via collective bargaining with the UAW into giving exorbitant benefits to their work forces. Any major manufacturer has that to look forward to for their US-based plants.
  - mandmandam 5y ago
    I didn't get into the whys; though certainly any union that systematically undermines public transport needs to be looked at. Mr. Gray talks about the decline of the West; without mentioning inequality, outsourcing, deregulation, or the proven liars that lied us into wars that cost us trillions. Detroit isn't much to do with it.
    - CryptoPunk 5y ago
      The broad trends have been 1. the rise of regulations, reflected in the rise in the number of regulatory agencies, the number of people employed by regulatory agencies, the budget of regulatory agencies, the percentage of occupations requiring an occupational license (5 to 29% between 1950 and today) and the size of the federal code of regulations. Here is just one horror story that comes out of this trend: https://youtu.be/6M3P8sT4IFg https://youtu.be/6M3P8sT4IFg 2. the rise in social spending: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-longrun https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-long... driven largely by the rise of unions and collective bargaining in the public sector
      - mandmandam 5y ago
        For the most part, 1 and 2 have been extraordinarily good things for society. Do you want to try and draw the line from investing in people to reduce poverty, sickness, deprivation and starvation to the downfall of the West and rise of totalitarianism? I'm not seeing it. How do unions and regulations even explain corrupt prosecutors, which existed back at the start of your graph, as well as for thousands of years before?
        CryptoPunk 5y ago
        >>Do you want to try and draw the line from investing in people to reduce poverty, sickness, deprivation and starvation to the downfall of the West and rise of totalitarianism? I'm not seeing it. Central economic planning is inefficient. China learned that, and embarked on massive market reforms in 1979: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform As for "investing in people to reduce poverty" etc, in the long-term, people develop their own personal safety nets in a society without a government-sponsored safety net. Economists have studied this phenomenon, and found that societies with low government social welfare spending levels, like many East Asian countries, have high personal savings rates and extended-family-based support networks. This is what you want. You do not want the safety net to be provided by a centralized authority. That creates a fragile economy, like the USSR's, where after the state's bankruptcy and subsequent dissolution, millions who had grown dependent on its safety net died of privation. The incentives are also much much better for productivity when you don't have formulaic and unconditional social support that people can abuse: "you can eat every day and eat well without spending money, then you can use your money to buy your drugs" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyhITqVAugI&feature=youtu.be&t=85 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyhITqVAugI&feature=youtu.be... >>How do unions and regulations even explain corrupt prosecutors, which existed back at the start of your graph, as well as for thousands of years before? As the laws/regulations become more complex, they become easier to run afoul of, and the easier it is for a corrupt prosecutor to find an excuse to persecute someone: "The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state." - Tacitus As regulatory institutions become larger, and more complex, they also become harder for the electorate to keep accountable. They develop their own "institutional interests", which economist Thomas Sowell gives an example of here: https://youtu.be/uiYH66HznW0?t=410 https://youtu.be/uiYH66HznW0?t=410
- jaldhar 5y ago
  Politicians are overwhelmingly from the credentialed class. See https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2021/01/08/the-college-profile-of-the-new-members-in-the-117th-congress/?sh=7f766a2c3b10 https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2021/01/08/the-... for US data. I expect the skew towards college to be similar in other Western countries. An interesting question is why do so many noble university liberals turn into icky politicians?
  - mandmandam 5y ago
    Because they all know each other. For you and me, college is about learning. For the "elites", it's networking.

Wildgoose 5y ago

An excellent analysis of the issues, but fails to make any suggestions at to what can be done - probably because to do so would only invoke attacks on the author.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]