7 ms·

Why were they storing them in the first place?

by flemhans 5y ago

djbebs 5y ago
Are you asking why the estonian government was storying identity information?
- wutwutwutwut 5y ago
  Yes, he was. Many people in US specifically does not seem to have knowledge about how other countries are governed.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    Presumably the US government stores passport photographs, and the state governments store driving license photographs. (Estonia has a similar population to Maine or New Hampshire, 1.3 million people.)
    - yostrovs 5y ago
      They do now. There was a time when you could go to the DMV and switch places with your friend right before the photo for the ID was taken. If you were under 21 and your friend was older, you had a real fake ID made for you by the state. At least in Illinois that was the case when I was still underage. Now they do see the older photo come up when renewing a license, presumably to prevent swapping.
      - nly 5y ago
        Seems like a dumb thing for your friend to do for you when that photo will be part of a permanent database.
        Talanes 5y ago
        The purpose of that anecdote was to demonstrate that there was no database at that time.
      - Aaargh20318 5y ago
        > There was a time when you could go to the DMV and switch places with your friend right before the photo for the ID was taken. But wouldn't that mean your friend no longer had a valid drivers license ?
        code_duck 5y ago
        The old license is not effectively invalidated in any way. Almost nobody you presented the license to would know that another one has been issued, besides possibly a police officer. It would be fairly easy to tell them that you got a replacement and then found the old one.
        Aaargh20318 5y ago
        > The old license is not effectively invalidated in any way. Almost nobody you presented the license to would know that another one has been issued That’s strange. Where I live, if you get a new ID you have to turn in your old one. You can keep a passport if you want (some people like to if they have a ot of stamps from their travels) but in that case they punch a couple of big holes through the entire booklet before returning it to you (basically, it removes the chip and some other security measures).
        code_duck 5y ago
        They do ask you to do that, but what if you lost it?
        Aaargh20318 5y ago
        If you lost it you have to go to the police and report it lost. Then you need to hand over the police report when you request a new one. Reporting it lost or stolen also invalidates your drivers license meaning you can’t drive while you wait for your new license.
        code_duck 5y ago
      - code_duck 5y ago
        Someone I know did this with his brothers documents without his brother being involved. He took the documents to the DMV and said he lost his license. Pretty much all they had to go on was basic appearance metrics and questions like where you got your license last time. This was in the 90s so it’s possible it might not be as easy now.
        ghaff 5y ago
        In my state, and I assume most/all(?) others, it's all electronic. When I had to replace a lost license a few years back, it was very easy. Go to a website and pay $25 or whatever. But there's no new photo involved.
        code_duck 5y ago
        For the most recent state I lived in, IDs are issues for four years. If lost during that time, they give you an identical replacement if in the first 2 years but require a new picture if replaced in the second half.
        adolph 5y ago
        A distant acquaintance did that in the early 90s, only that person asked for a new drivers license. The clerk attempted to offer a duplicate instead of a new license and the nervous license getter refused until the clerk said, "look I'm trying to save you some money, we still take your picture and give you the license today!"
    - runako 5y ago
      Only ~30% of Americans have a passport, so the passport database is nothing like comprehensive.
    - code_duck 5y ago
      From what I recall, in a fairly recent traffic stop in my home state the police officer had access to all of my license information including the photo.
    - sneak 5y ago
      State governments have to turn over all of the DL/ID data to the feds these days under the new backdoor federal ID law ("Real ID").
  - vletal 5y ago
    Well, is not it simply because the rest of us living outside of the US are frequently exposed to US politics via mainstream media? Since there is 160+ countries in the world, this exposure can be hardly symmetrical.
    - wutwutwutwut 5y ago
      I'm sure, but even as a person living in the US, having knowledge on how your own country differs from all others make sense.
  - flemhans 5y ago
    I'm from Denmark, not the US, and they don't store my picture by default. The passport picture is stored in the chip and then supposedly discarded.
Dma54rhs 5y ago
Very few governments don't store data like that, America and it lack of standardized documentation is an outliner in the developed world.
- drstewart 5y ago
  Do you have a source for this? I'm curious to see a chart of "centralization of standardized documentation" by country to validate your claims.
  - Dma54rhs 5y ago
    Source for what, it's so common knowledge that you should list countries that don't do centralized id besides USA in the developed world. Search for voting id laws is probably a good start. https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2019/06/06/better-security-for-id-documents-council-adopts-new-rules/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2019... These are from 2019,but the documents have always existed. And each country is using this guideline for their countries.
    - johannes1234321 5y ago
      having a givernment issued ID neither means all data is being stored, nor that itnis stored centralized. In Germany for instance most data is held by the municipality and centralization happens slowly and centralizing pictures is only a recent proposal.
      - croes 5y ago
        Because it's not necessary. Since 2017 police and secret agencies can access all photos 24/7 per web access.
        est31 5y ago
        The centralization proposal the person you are replying to was done because that API access you are talking about apparently hasn't been implemented in a wide spread manner. So now each Bundesland can create their own database. https://www.golem.de/news/trotz-kritik-smartphone-ausweis-und-passfoto-datenbanken-beschlossen-2105-156671.html https://www.golem.de/news/trotz-kritik-smartphone-ausweis-un...
chrismeller 5y ago
Multiple reasons, just like CBP in the US can pull up your photo to make sure the one on the ID and standing in front of them is actually the person the system says it is. They also compared my old ID photo with the new photo I was submitting when I renewed it recently for the same reason. Though I've never had this particular problem, I believe the police will also do the same thing to verify they're arresting or ticketing the right person. Also keep in mind that Estonia is the size of a (quite) small state in the US, so they're storing things like a driver's license photo just like your state would. You actually don't need a physical driver's license with you in Estonia as long as it's linked to your ID card, so it's really an "all your eggs in one basket" kind of system.

Why were they storing them in the first place?

djbebs 5y ago

Are you asking why the estonian government was storying identity information?

wutwutwutwut 5y ago
Yes, he was. Many people in US specifically does not seem to have knowledge about how other countries are governed.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  Presumably the US government stores passport photographs, and the state governments store driving license photographs. (Estonia has a similar population to Maine or New Hampshire, 1.3 million people.)
  - yostrovs 5y ago
    They do now. There was a time when you could go to the DMV and switch places with your friend right before the photo for the ID was taken. If you were under 21 and your friend was older, you had a real fake ID made for you by the state. At least in Illinois that was the case when I was still underage. Now they do see the older photo come up when renewing a license, presumably to prevent swapping.
    - nly 5y ago
      Seems like a dumb thing for your friend to do for you when that photo will be part of a permanent database.
      - Talanes 5y ago
        The purpose of that anecdote was to demonstrate that there was no database at that time.
    - Aaargh20318 5y ago
      > There was a time when you could go to the DMV and switch places with your friend right before the photo for the ID was taken. But wouldn't that mean your friend no longer had a valid drivers license ?
      - code_duck 5y ago
        The old license is not effectively invalidated in any way. Almost nobody you presented the license to would know that another one has been issued, besides possibly a police officer. It would be fairly easy to tell them that you got a replacement and then found the old one.
        Aaargh20318 5y ago
        > The old license is not effectively invalidated in any way. Almost nobody you presented the license to would know that another one has been issued That’s strange. Where I live, if you get a new ID you have to turn in your old one. You can keep a passport if you want (some people like to if they have a ot of stamps from their travels) but in that case they punch a couple of big holes through the entire booklet before returning it to you (basically, it removes the chip and some other security measures).
        code_duck 5y ago
        They do ask you to do that, but what if you lost it?
        Aaargh20318 5y ago
        If you lost it you have to go to the police and report it lost. Then you need to hand over the police report when you request a new one. Reporting it lost or stolen also invalidates your drivers license meaning you can’t drive while you wait for your new license.
        code_duck 5y ago
    - code_duck 5y ago
      Someone I know did this with his brothers documents without his brother being involved. He took the documents to the DMV and said he lost his license. Pretty much all they had to go on was basic appearance metrics and questions like where you got your license last time. This was in the 90s so it’s possible it might not be as easy now.
      - ghaff 5y ago
        In my state, and I assume most/all(?) others, it's all electronic. When I had to replace a lost license a few years back, it was very easy. Go to a website and pay $25 or whatever. But there's no new photo involved.
        code_duck 5y ago
        For the most recent state I lived in, IDs are issues for four years. If lost during that time, they give you an identical replacement if in the first 2 years but require a new picture if replaced in the second half.
      - adolph 5y ago
        A distant acquaintance did that in the early 90s, only that person asked for a new drivers license. The clerk attempted to offer a duplicate instead of a new license and the nervous license getter refused until the clerk said, "look I'm trying to save you some money, we still take your picture and give you the license today!"
  - runako 5y ago
    Only ~30% of Americans have a passport, so the passport database is nothing like comprehensive.
  - code_duck 5y ago
    From what I recall, in a fairly recent traffic stop in my home state the police officer had access to all of my license information including the photo.
  - sneak 5y ago
    State governments have to turn over all of the DL/ID data to the feds these days under the new backdoor federal ID law ("Real ID").
- vletal 5y ago
  Well, is not it simply because the rest of us living outside of the US are frequently exposed to US politics via mainstream media? Since there is 160+ countries in the world, this exposure can be hardly symmetrical.
  - wutwutwutwut 5y ago
    I'm sure, but even as a person living in the US, having knowledge on how your own country differs from all others make sense.
- flemhans 5y ago
  I'm from Denmark, not the US, and they don't store my picture by default. The passport picture is stored in the chip and then supposedly discarded.

Dma54rhs 5y ago

Very few governments don't store data like that, America and it lack of standardized documentation is an outliner in the developed world.

drstewart 5y ago
Do you have a source for this? I'm curious to see a chart of "centralization of standardized documentation" by country to validate your claims.
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  Source for what, it's so common knowledge that you should list countries that don't do centralized id besides USA in the developed world. Search for voting id laws is probably a good start. https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2019/06/06/better-security-for-id-documents-council-adopts-new-rules/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2019... These are from 2019,but the documents have always existed. And each country is using this guideline for their countries.
  - johannes1234321 5y ago
    having a givernment issued ID neither means all data is being stored, nor that itnis stored centralized. In Germany for instance most data is held by the municipality and centralization happens slowly and centralizing pictures is only a recent proposal.
    - croes 5y ago
      Because it's not necessary. Since 2017 police and secret agencies can access all photos 24/7 per web access.
      - est31 5y ago
        The centralization proposal the person you are replying to was done because that API access you are talking about apparently hasn't been implemented in a wide spread manner. So now each Bundesland can create their own database. https://www.golem.de/news/trotz-kritik-smartphone-ausweis-und-passfoto-datenbanken-beschlossen-2105-156671.html https://www.golem.de/news/trotz-kritik-smartphone-ausweis-un...

chrismeller 5y ago

Multiple reasons, just like CBP in the US can pull up your photo to make sure the one on the ID and standing in front of them is actually the person the system says it is. They also compared my old ID photo with the new photo I was submitting when I renewed it recently for the same reason. Though I've never had this particular problem, I believe the police will also do the same thing to verify they're arresting or ticketing the right person. Also keep in mind that Estonia is the size of a (quite) small state in the US, so they're storing things like a driver's license photo just like your state would. You actually don't need a physical driver's license with you in Estonia as long as it's linked to your ID card, so it's really an "all your eggs in one basket" kind of system.