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a) Patents are alternative to trade secret. b) Patents allow separation of innovation from manufacturing. > If patents do exactly what they are intended to do

by nabla9 5y ago

a) Patents are alternative to trade secret. b) Patents allow separation of innovation from manufacturing. > If patents do exactly what they are intended to do, they damage periods of rapid, cheap progress. Maybe you are right, and George Washington and James Madison were wrong, but you need to make better argument considering all aspects, not just state your opinion as a fact. To convince us from your viewpoint explain what Bell would have done differently without patents. Using only trade secrets. Would Bell Labs have done so extensive basic research? Secondly explain how you allow small inventors to exist without patent system.

roenxi 5y ago
Bureaucratic systems don't help the small inventors. Bureaucratic systems, without fail, are going to benefit people who can hire lots of lawyers. People with more lawyers and deeper pockets have a structural advantage in legal fights. Sticking to the case study at hand, the patent system set up Bell to do a bunch of basic research, patent it, then lock out small competition. I'm cool if you're cool with that, but the antitrust isn't the reason growth was enabled, it was that the patent system was functioning as expected and the government disabled it. When they wanted growth, they revoked the patents. Which is sensible. And revoking the patents allowed faster growth. You may not like how they treated Bell and changing the rules on half way through is indeed unfair, but them's the outcomes.
- nabla9 5y ago
  >Bureaucratic systems don't help the small inventors. Bureaucratic systems, without fail, are going to benefit people who can hire lots of lawyers. These are blanket statements and ideological normative statements. You don't engage in argument.
  - thioordc 5y ago
    Also I have tried to get a patent for a silly thing I made. If I wanted the real deal and not patent pending it would cost like 10k minimum. A lo for a single person but nothing for a company.
bjornsing 5y ago
> Maybe you are right, and George Washington and James Madison were wrong, but you need to make better argument considering all aspects, not just state your opinion as a fact. The US constitution reads [The Congress shall have power] “To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.” Sounds very similar to the “opinion” of the parent comment.
- nabla9 5y ago
  "useful arts" = technical inventions. You can't have clear idea of what what the constitution means without knowing what was the terminology and context when it was written. George Washington and James Madison wrote and promoted patent system extensively outside what is written in the constitution. Examples: Madison Federalist No. 43 etc. President Washington called on Congress to create a patent system in the first the State of the Union address ever. It resulted the Patent Act of 1790.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  That reads to me as if the framers of the Constitution were in favor of patents* (limited time exclusive rights) as being supportive of progress in science and technology. Are you arguing otherwise? (I can’t tell exactly what you’re referring to as “parent”.) * (and copyright, but patents are the subject here)
  - bjornsing 5y ago
    By parent I’m referring to the comment you get to if you press the “parent” link on the comment I replied to. To me it seems like > If patents do exactly what they are intended to do, they damage periods of rapid, cheap progress. is very much in line with the wording of the constitution. I guess in order to see that you have to also believe that monopolies hurt rapid, cheap progress. I think most reasonable people do.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      Right. The question was parent link on your comment or parent link on parent link of your comment. The counter argument is “if you can’t make a return on investment in innovation, you tend to get less investment in innovation”. Whether that return comes from monopoly in corporate behavior or legal protection from patents, somehow you want to allow some (but limited) profit to be made from investments in R&D.
kiba 5y ago
To convince us from your viewpoint explain what Bell would have done differently without patents. Using only trade secrets. Would Bell Labs have done so extensive basic research? Secondly explain how you allow small inventors to exist without patent system. Small inventors are already squished by the patent system, because they're used by larger players to squish inventors. Plus, big players can basically start a lab and patent ALL the innovations and inventions. There's no guarantee that these corporations will commercialize the technologies for the benefit of humanity. For example, 3D printing was stymied by initial innovators. It was only when expiration of patents that allowed the open source 3d printing ecosystem to flourish. In any case, we missed at least a decade of development in 3d printing technology.
- nabla9 5y ago
  > Small inventors are already squished by Not as much as you think. They would be squished completely without patent system. Because current patent system is not perfect you are advocating something worse. A small and micro entities can file patents very cheaply. In the US fees are cut 60 to 75 percent. Without patents, you can't small or medium sized R&D companies that file patents would go extinct. (Btw. I strongly favor mandatory licensing for patents. Mandatory licensing might be immediate or after a year or something). >For example, 3D printing was stymied by initial innovators. Can you make argument that it would not be stymied the same way or worse without patents (trade secret).
  - kiba 5y ago
    But not as much as completely without patent system. Because current patent system is not perfect you are advocating something worse. How would you know that the patent system works better than nothing? Maybe you have to consider that an idea is fundamentally flawed in the first place. Without patents, you can't small or medium sized R&D companies that file patents would go extinct. Not exactly true. SpaceX deliberately didn't patent their technologies, and yet they succeeded brilliantly. They are now the Goliath of the industry.
    - nabla9 5y ago

by nabla9 5y ago

roenxi 5y ago

Bureaucratic systems don't help the small inventors. Bureaucratic systems, without fail, are going to benefit people who can hire lots of lawyers. People with more lawyers and deeper pockets have a structural advantage in legal fights. Sticking to the case study at hand, the patent system set up Bell to do a bunch of basic research, patent it, then lock out small competition. I'm cool if you're cool with that, but the antitrust isn't the reason growth was enabled, it was that the patent system was functioning as expected and the government disabled it. When they wanted growth, they revoked the patents. Which is sensible. And revoking the patents allowed faster growth. You may not like how they treated Bell and changing the rules on half way through is indeed unfair, but them's the outcomes.

nabla9 5y ago
>Bureaucratic systems don't help the small inventors. Bureaucratic systems, without fail, are going to benefit people who can hire lots of lawyers. These are blanket statements and ideological normative statements. You don't engage in argument.
- thioordc 5y ago
  Also I have tried to get a patent for a silly thing I made. If I wanted the real deal and not patent pending it would cost like 10k minimum. A lo for a single person but nothing for a company.

bjornsing 5y ago

> Maybe you are right, and George Washington and James Madison were wrong, but you need to make better argument considering all aspects, not just state your opinion as a fact. The US constitution reads [The Congress shall have power] “To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.” Sounds very similar to the “opinion” of the parent comment.

nabla9 5y ago
"useful arts" = technical inventions. You can't have clear idea of what what the constitution means without knowing what was the terminology and context when it was written. George Washington and James Madison wrote and promoted patent system extensively outside what is written in the constitution. Examples: Madison Federalist No. 43 etc. President Washington called on Congress to create a patent system in the first the State of the Union address ever. It resulted the Patent Act of 1790.
sokoloff 5y ago
That reads to me as if the framers of the Constitution were in favor of patents* (limited time exclusive rights) as being supportive of progress in science and technology. Are you arguing otherwise? (I can’t tell exactly what you’re referring to as “parent”.) * (and copyright, but patents are the subject here)
- bjornsing 5y ago
  By parent I’m referring to the comment you get to if you press the “parent” link on the comment I replied to. To me it seems like > If patents do exactly what they are intended to do, they damage periods of rapid, cheap progress. is very much in line with the wording of the constitution. I guess in order to see that you have to also believe that monopolies hurt rapid, cheap progress. I think most reasonable people do.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Right. The question was parent link on your comment or parent link on parent link of your comment. The counter argument is “if you can’t make a return on investment in innovation, you tend to get less investment in innovation”. Whether that return comes from monopoly in corporate behavior or legal protection from patents, somehow you want to allow some (but limited) profit to be made from investments in R&D.

kiba 5y ago

To convince us from your viewpoint explain what Bell would have done differently without patents. Using only trade secrets. Would Bell Labs have done so extensive basic research? Secondly explain how you allow small inventors to exist without patent system. Small inventors are already squished by the patent system, because they're used by larger players to squish inventors. Plus, big players can basically start a lab and patent ALL the innovations and inventions. There's no guarantee that these corporations will commercialize the technologies for the benefit of humanity. For example, 3D printing was stymied by initial innovators. It was only when expiration of patents that allowed the open source 3d printing ecosystem to flourish. In any case, we missed at least a decade of development in 3d printing technology.

nabla9 5y ago
> Small inventors are already squished by Not as much as you think. They would be squished completely without patent system. Because current patent system is not perfect you are advocating something worse. A small and micro entities can file patents very cheaply. In the US fees are cut 60 to 75 percent. Without patents, you can't small or medium sized R&D companies that file patents would go extinct. (Btw. I strongly favor mandatory licensing for patents. Mandatory licensing might be immediate or after a year or something). >For example, 3D printing was stymied by initial innovators. Can you make argument that it would not be stymied the same way or worse without patents (trade secret).
- kiba 5y ago
  But not as much as completely without patent system. Because current patent system is not perfect you are advocating something worse. How would you know that the patent system works better than nothing? Maybe you have to consider that an idea is fundamentally flawed in the first place. Without patents, you can't small or medium sized R&D companies that file patents would go extinct. Not exactly true. SpaceX deliberately didn't patent their technologies, and yet they succeeded brilliantly. They are now the Goliath of the industry.
  - nabla9 5y ago