6 ms·

As someone who also started reading the comments in this thread, I can wholeheartedly second this. Remember, nobody is going to change their mind on this issue

As someone who also started reading the comments in this thread, I can wholeheartedly second this. Remember, nobody is going to change their mind on this issue because of a perfectly worded response in an internet discussion. If you want to change anyone's mind, focus on the people you can speak to in the real world—and have a conversation filled with love and respect. Fear of vaccination is a powerful meme which cannot be countered by deriding the people who are sincerely captured by it. Instead, I suggest you walk them through the statistics and place them into human terms and human context. Show them how to calculate risk of death. Show them how to calculate risk of long term injury.

TulliusCicero 5y ago
> Remember, nobody is going to change their mind on this issue because of a perfectly worded response in an internet discussion. People have absolutely changed their minds because of internet discussions. Usually it's not one of the participants, though.
- kiliancs 5y ago
  Also, change takes time. There's a digestion process. Of course some people are not interested in finding truth and simply cling to their own opinion.
- simondotau 5y ago
  My advice was meant to be interpreted in a more holistic sense. It is true that occasionally, people have had their minds changed by reading an internet discussion. But most people are more likely to change someone's mind by speaking to people they know in the real world, than they are by contributing to the noise on the Internet.
RubberMullet 5y ago
I believe this goes way beyond the fear of vaccination. There is rampant distrust in many of our institutions and I would argue this isn't unfounded. We are witnessing profound and fundamental issues that go beyond what some perceive as antiscience and/or racist sentiments. All this is being compounded by technology in many different ways. Everyone has the ability to create their own version of Malleus Maleficarum and publish it to the world in an instant. Social media, especially with the lockdowns, has demonstrated the limits of our evolutionary biology. Twitter often reminds me of a very crude form of the Babel fish from THHGTG[0]. It's going to take more than love and respect to overcome the effects of the virus and the response to it. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuumnjJWFO4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuumnjJWFO4
native_samples 5y ago
No, really, better not. The people who are "captured" by this meme, as you rather condescendingly put it, generally don't trust the vaccine safety statistics, have many valid reasons not to do so, and are also well aware of the statistics around how dangerous COVID is or isn't for themselves. It would take great faith to believe that the institutions are providing reliable data right now in an atmosphere of mass hysteria. How about, rather than assuming people you disagree with are "captured" by "memes", you sit down, treat them like intelligent adults, listen to them and only then consider what to do?
- seriousquestion 5y ago
  Well said. It's projection. Many of those complaining about others being captured by memes are they themselves captured by groupthink. That the institutions are failing so badly is, understandably, causing great distress and cognitive dissonance for people who desperately want to trust an authority. It's easy to forget, but all of this and more came from public health professionals and the media: Two weeks to flatten the curve. The flu is the real pandemic. Get out there for Chinese New Year! Wuhan Lab Leak is for crazy racists. Masks don’t work. No Lockdowns Anymore! So is it any wonder that people are confused and angry?
- xyzzy21 5y ago
  There is NO SAFETY data because no COVID vaccines have finished clinical trails yet. That's what "Emergency Authorization" means - we give it to people even though it hasn't gone through the human clinical trials that every other drug normally does! Everyone vaccinated is legally and procedurally part of those clinical trials - it says so on the FDA web site. And those trials are not scheduled to be completed until 2023 - also stated on the same FDA web page. So "safety" absolutely has NOT been proven or validated yet. Even minimal standard FDA processes have not been completed.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    The hell are you talking about, we have data from the clinical trials that ran last year. Those phases have completed.
blub 5y ago
I had discussions about vaccines with relatives and there I've tried to make a case where I think it would be beneficial for them. I've dropped the topic for those that don't want it, perhaps only jokingly bringing it up every now and then, but they do have to test before if they come by. What I don't understand is this obsession about the vaccination status of strangers. The only time that I felt upset about somebody else's vaccination status was with (our) teachers that said they won't get it. Because kids can't be protected by the vaccine, I think it's justified that the teachers are asked to vaccinate and the manufacturer/gov must compensate them for any side-effects. Other than that everyone has a right to decide what they put in their body. The state of the pandemic does not justify violating this right.
- simondotau 5y ago
  > What I don't understand is this obsession about the vaccination status of strangers. Herd immunity. It's an important part of the efficacy of the vaccination of highly contagious pathogens. It's why smallpox is now just a page on Wikipedia, rather than an existential risk to your life.

TulliusCicero 5y ago

> Remember, nobody is going to change their mind on this issue because of a perfectly worded response in an internet discussion. People have absolutely changed their minds because of internet discussions. Usually it's not one of the participants, though.

kiliancs 5y ago
Also, change takes time. There's a digestion process. Of course some people are not interested in finding truth and simply cling to their own opinion.
simondotau 5y ago
My advice was meant to be interpreted in a more holistic sense. It is true that occasionally, people have had their minds changed by reading an internet discussion. But most people are more likely to change someone's mind by speaking to people they know in the real world, than they are by contributing to the noise on the Internet.

RubberMullet 5y ago

I believe this goes way beyond the fear of vaccination. There is rampant distrust in many of our institutions and I would argue this isn't unfounded. We are witnessing profound and fundamental issues that go beyond what some perceive as antiscience and/or racist sentiments. All this is being compounded by technology in many different ways. Everyone has the ability to create their own version of Malleus Maleficarum and publish it to the world in an instant. Social media, especially with the lockdowns, has demonstrated the limits of our evolutionary biology. Twitter often reminds me of a very crude form of the Babel fish from THHGTG[0]. It's going to take more than love and respect to overcome the effects of the virus and the response to it. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuumnjJWFO4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuumnjJWFO4

native_samples 5y ago

No, really, better not. The people who are "captured" by this meme, as you rather condescendingly put it, generally don't trust the vaccine safety statistics, have many valid reasons not to do so, and are also well aware of the statistics around how dangerous COVID is or isn't for themselves. It would take great faith to believe that the institutions are providing reliable data right now in an atmosphere of mass hysteria. How about, rather than assuming people you disagree with are "captured" by "memes", you sit down, treat them like intelligent adults, listen to them and only then consider what to do?

seriousquestion 5y ago
Well said. It's projection. Many of those complaining about others being captured by memes are they themselves captured by groupthink. That the institutions are failing so badly is, understandably, causing great distress and cognitive dissonance for people who desperately want to trust an authority. It's easy to forget, but all of this and more came from public health professionals and the media: Two weeks to flatten the curve. The flu is the real pandemic. Get out there for Chinese New Year! Wuhan Lab Leak is for crazy racists. Masks don’t work. No Lockdowns Anymore! So is it any wonder that people are confused and angry?
xyzzy21 5y ago
There is NO SAFETY data because no COVID vaccines have finished clinical trails yet. That's what "Emergency Authorization" means - we give it to people even though it hasn't gone through the human clinical trials that every other drug normally does! Everyone vaccinated is legally and procedurally part of those clinical trials - it says so on the FDA web site. And those trials are not scheduled to be completed until 2023 - also stated on the same FDA web page. So "safety" absolutely has NOT been proven or validated yet. Even minimal standard FDA processes have not been completed.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  The hell are you talking about, we have data from the clinical trials that ran last year. Those phases have completed.

blub 5y ago

I had discussions about vaccines with relatives and there I've tried to make a case where I think it would be beneficial for them. I've dropped the topic for those that don't want it, perhaps only jokingly bringing it up every now and then, but they do have to test before if they come by. What I don't understand is this obsession about the vaccination status of strangers. The only time that I felt upset about somebody else's vaccination status was with (our) teachers that said they won't get it. Because kids can't be protected by the vaccine, I think it's justified that the teachers are asked to vaccinate and the manufacturer/gov must compensate them for any side-effects. Other than that everyone has a right to decide what they put in their body. The state of the pandemic does not justify violating this right.

simondotau 5y ago
> What I don't understand is this obsession about the vaccination status of strangers. Herd immunity. It's an important part of the efficacy of the vaccination of highly contagious pathogens. It's why smallpox is now just a page on Wikipedia, rather than an existential risk to your life.