4 ms·

I sure hope so, but at least here in Germany NIMBYs are highly organized and effective at preventing more wind turbines. It doesn't help that many politicians d

I sure hope so, but at least here in Germany NIMBYs are highly organized and effective at preventing more wind turbines. It doesn't help that many politicians do their best to prevent wind turbines too.

inglor_cz 5y ago
I wouldn't like to have a wind turbine just next to my home (let us say less than 1 km) either, and I would definitely fight against placing wind turbines into protected natural areas like mountains, which are pretty much the only places far from the sea that have almost constant wind. The proponents of wind turbines seem to forget that wind turbines are huge industrial systems. Placing them all over the map in a populated territory in the name of nature sounds a bit like "we had to destroy the village in order to save it". Future generations may shake their heads on current placement of wind turbines just like we shake our heads on our forefathers placing iron smelting industry in the middle of cities. I can see their appeal in shallow seas around North Germany, Denmark or England, where they can produce a lot of power from constant sea winds and be a bit out of sight and hearing, but people pushing them into Erzgebirge are damaging valuable places for a few megawatts of power.
- adrianN 5y ago
  We need to put them everywhere the wind blows if we want to become carbon neutral. Just putting up a couple of offshore turbines in northern Germany won't be enough by a large margin. In Germany we always had very strict laws that regulate how long a house can be shaded by a wind turbine per year (8h/year, 30min/day iirc), only recently politicians started imposing arbitrary distance rules based on wrong information about noise immissions. I'd rather have a wind turbine close to my house than a road, provided I'm not in the flicker-shadow region of the blades.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    "We need to put them everywhere the wind blows if we want to become carbon neutral." That sounds far from optimal to me. If sea turbines are, say, five times more efficient and legally/socially non-problematic, why not just cover the sea with them as far as possible?
    - adrianN 5y ago
      Because "as far as possible" is not enough. Even if you ignore that off shore power is a good bit more expensive to build, there is just not enough room there with current technology. And, by the way, the ocean deserves just as much protection as the mountains. Building offshore wind parks is not exactly good for the local wildlife there either.
    - hannob 5y ago
      I think you have an overly optimistic view of sea turbines. They're more expensive, require more infrastructure (pylons and electricity lines aren't conflict free either) and there are a lot of conflicts around use of seawaters. And for a country like Germany there simply isn't enough space within the north sea and baltic sea for all the wind power we'll need. (And to be clear: I'm 100% supportive of offshore wind energy, I just think it's entirely unrealistic to assume that could be a replacement for onshore wind. We need both.)
- shapefrog 5y ago
  NIMBY found What exactly is it about a wind turbine within 1000m of your home that bothers you?
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Yes, I am not totally indifferent to where I live. In other contexts, this attitude might be called "activism" and viewed positively. As to your question: sound and sight. I definitely believe in smarter urban planning that just does not mash power plants and residential building together.
    - bryanlarsen 5y ago
      Urban planning that mashes together residential, retail, light industry and clean power sounds a lot smarter than American style urban planning that forces you to drive everywhere.
      - inglor_cz 5y ago
        As a normal citizen, you do not really need to drive to your power station, though. Wind turbines operate without personnel and transmission losses from one extra km of cable are negligible. Only maintenance needs to visit them from time to time.
        bryanlarsen 5y ago
        Wind turbines have almost zero footprint, a few square meters per square kilometer. They can either be installed where people are or where people aren't. Far better for the environment if they are installed in populated regions.
        fomine3 5y ago
        What's the pros?
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
- 7952 5y ago
  People have a very simplistic view of nature vs industrial. That could make sense in some untouched part of the Nevada desert. But a lot of the world it is just more complicated than that. We act like the landscape is untouched, unblemished and static when it is not! People don't like their view to change and equate that emotional impact with more substantive impact to nature. Landscape does matter, but not very much in comparison to more pressing matters. I think future generations will shake their heads at our willingness to pander to emotion.
- bryanlarsen 5y ago
  Yet you probably have a major road less than a kilometer from your place which is much more polluting and environment damaging than a wind turbine. Visit a place than mixes industry and residential sensibly, like Japan before condemning it. Heavy industry is segregated, but light industry isn't.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Not really, the next major road is some 4 km from me. I chose my place of residence with regard to that (and I actually mostly travel by train/bus). Also, if electric cars become a thing, you can at least hope that within 10-15 years, environmental damage from major roads will diminish.
    - g8oz 5y ago
      You have not refuted the OPs point. We become so used to the impacts that we've grown up with that they tend to become invisible. Cue the pearl clutching and hysterics when something new comes along.
      - inglor_cz 5y ago
        Your "we" does not include "me". I specifically avoid noisy locations all my life. For me, lack of noise is even more important than clean air, though they tend to come together.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  The planet is on fire, and we're arguing about whether firefighters create too much traffic congestion. Future generations are far more likely to shake their heads at how we destroyed the climate with CO2 emissions. I'm sympathetic, I really am, but these small harms need to be weighed against the effects of unchecked climate change!

inglor_cz 5y ago

I wouldn't like to have a wind turbine just next to my home (let us say less than 1 km) either, and I would definitely fight against placing wind turbines into protected natural areas like mountains, which are pretty much the only places far from the sea that have almost constant wind. The proponents of wind turbines seem to forget that wind turbines are huge industrial systems. Placing them all over the map in a populated territory in the name of nature sounds a bit like "we had to destroy the village in order to save it". Future generations may shake their heads on current placement of wind turbines just like we shake our heads on our forefathers placing iron smelting industry in the middle of cities. I can see their appeal in shallow seas around North Germany, Denmark or England, where they can produce a lot of power from constant sea winds and be a bit out of sight and hearing, but people pushing them into Erzgebirge are damaging valuable places for a few megawatts of power.

adrianN 5y ago
We need to put them everywhere the wind blows if we want to become carbon neutral. Just putting up a couple of offshore turbines in northern Germany won't be enough by a large margin. In Germany we always had very strict laws that regulate how long a house can be shaded by a wind turbine per year (8h/year, 30min/day iirc), only recently politicians started imposing arbitrary distance rules based on wrong information about noise immissions. I'd rather have a wind turbine close to my house than a road, provided I'm not in the flicker-shadow region of the blades.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  "We need to put them everywhere the wind blows if we want to become carbon neutral." That sounds far from optimal to me. If sea turbines are, say, five times more efficient and legally/socially non-problematic, why not just cover the sea with them as far as possible?
  - adrianN 5y ago
    Because "as far as possible" is not enough. Even if you ignore that off shore power is a good bit more expensive to build, there is just not enough room there with current technology. And, by the way, the ocean deserves just as much protection as the mountains. Building offshore wind parks is not exactly good for the local wildlife there either.
  - hannob 5y ago
    I think you have an overly optimistic view of sea turbines. They're more expensive, require more infrastructure (pylons and electricity lines aren't conflict free either) and there are a lot of conflicts around use of seawaters. And for a country like Germany there simply isn't enough space within the north sea and baltic sea for all the wind power we'll need. (And to be clear: I'm 100% supportive of offshore wind energy, I just think it's entirely unrealistic to assume that could be a replacement for onshore wind. We need both.)
shapefrog 5y ago
NIMBY found What exactly is it about a wind turbine within 1000m of your home that bothers you?
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Yes, I am not totally indifferent to where I live. In other contexts, this attitude might be called "activism" and viewed positively. As to your question: sound and sight. I definitely believe in smarter urban planning that just does not mash power plants and residential building together.
  - bryanlarsen 5y ago
    Urban planning that mashes together residential, retail, light industry and clean power sounds a lot smarter than American style urban planning that forces you to drive everywhere.
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      As a normal citizen, you do not really need to drive to your power station, though. Wind turbines operate without personnel and transmission losses from one extra km of cable are negligible. Only maintenance needs to visit them from time to time.
      - bryanlarsen 5y ago
        Wind turbines have almost zero footprint, a few square meters per square kilometer. They can either be installed where people are or where people aren't. Far better for the environment if they are installed in populated regions.
        fomine3 5y ago
        What's the pros?
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
7952 5y ago
People have a very simplistic view of nature vs industrial. That could make sense in some untouched part of the Nevada desert. But a lot of the world it is just more complicated than that. We act like the landscape is untouched, unblemished and static when it is not! People don't like their view to change and equate that emotional impact with more substantive impact to nature. Landscape does matter, but not very much in comparison to more pressing matters. I think future generations will shake their heads at our willingness to pander to emotion.
bryanlarsen 5y ago
Yet you probably have a major road less than a kilometer from your place which is much more polluting and environment damaging than a wind turbine. Visit a place than mixes industry and residential sensibly, like Japan before condemning it. Heavy industry is segregated, but light industry isn't.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Not really, the next major road is some 4 km from me. I chose my place of residence with regard to that (and I actually mostly travel by train/bus). Also, if electric cars become a thing, you can at least hope that within 10-15 years, environmental damage from major roads will diminish.
  - g8oz 5y ago
    You have not refuted the OPs point. We become so used to the impacts that we've grown up with that they tend to become invisible. Cue the pearl clutching and hysterics when something new comes along.
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      Your "we" does not include "me". I specifically avoid noisy locations all my life. For me, lack of noise is even more important than clean air, though they tend to come together.
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
The planet is on fire, and we're arguing about whether firefighters create too much traffic congestion. Future generations are far more likely to shake their heads at how we destroyed the climate with CO2 emissions. I'm sympathetic, I really am, but these small harms need to be weighed against the effects of unchecked climate change!