5 ms·

There is a counter point to yours, just as valid, where folks don’t want to be around unvaccinated folks. Maybe they have an immunocompromised relative or child

There is a counter point to yours, just as valid, where folks don’t want to be around unvaccinated folks. Maybe they have an immunocompromised relative or child at home. Maybe they don’t feel safe with unvaccinated folks around. This is a game of odds. People keep acting like this is binary. You’re statistically more likely to have and spread covid without the vaccine. I would be delighted if my employer enforced this policy but in Finland it’s never going to happen.

makomk 5y ago
Honestly, anyone who's genuinely at risk enough that they can't risk being exposed despite being vaccinated - as opposed to the people who were convinced they are because of stupid media culture war bullshit - probably shouldn't be working in an office, because at that point they're going to be at reasonably comparable risk from the common cold. Seriously. The other four endemic human coronaviruses, for example, are very far from a walk in the park for at-risk people that manage to catch them; it's just that most people with working immune systems have some level of immunity that protects them from the worst effects.
- deanclatworthy 5y ago
  As I mentioned in my comment, many folks have families. We are not dealing with individuals when it comes to a pandemic. We are dealing with contagion amongst bubbles of people. Many people have vulnerable people in their bubbles at home and need to make a living.
  - joshuahughes 5y ago
    But how is this different from previously? Flu, common cold, various other viruses... all present a similar threat to that from covid and spread as easily. What has changed with covid to create so much additional fear and the subsequent authoritarian responses? Any decent person would just keep away from the office if they were ill. What's changed that now a particular course of action has to be mandated with the threat of job-loss as the alternative? Seems to me that those who are concerned about unfairness for one group are simply transferring that unfairness to another group.
    - deanclatworthy 5y ago
      > But how is this different from previously? Flu, common cold, various other viruses... all present a similar threat to that from covid and spread as easily. Because covid is more transmissible [1], more dangerous, has far longer lasting effects (long-covid), and because vaccines for non-covid viruses are generally more effective to _immunocompromised people_ as we've had longer to deal with them. Furthermore, flu has been around for generations. We've all probably had some variant of it in our lives, and have some level of immunity. Covid is entirely new. It's far easier to rip through the population and get into the proximity of vulnerable people than flu. > Any decent person would just keep away from the office if they were ill. Sure. Except you don't know you're ill. A majority of people will be asymptomatic and spreading it without knowing. This is what is happening in the UK right now.
      - VBprogrammer 5y ago
        I'm personally feeling pretty uncomfortable with comparisons to flu and the cold today. One of the guys on my team has just got out of hospital, he is in his mid-20s with no underlying conditions. Yet when be caught Covid he ended up in hospital on oxygen, was admitted to ICU, there was talk of him having to be intubated before he started to recover. That doesn't sound like a sniffly nose or a bad case of the runs to me. I know it's only an anecdote, a single data point, but it means a lot more to me.
    - himinlomax 5y ago
      Why is it there is no lock down for the flu? Answer: it's not the same disease.
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  So immunocompromised people shouldn't be around other humans, because anti-vaxxers are too selfish or anti-science to get vaccinated? If everyone got vaccinated, the pandemic would likely be over or close to over in rich countries.
  - deanclatworthy 5y ago
    This is not the case. Many people who are double vaccinated are testing positive for COVID and therefore capable of spreading it: https://archive.is/sYyMf https://archive.is/sYyMf Look at the data from the UK. The pandemic is far from over there, although hospitalisations are far far lower than previous peaks. There is a non-significant amount of immunocompromised people in the UK (1million+). Maybe the data we are seeing is because the immunocompromised people who take risks all ended up in hospital and died. Maybe, what you are left with is a huge number of people scared shitless at home, hiding, lonely, scared in a country where everyone is being told everything is fine. My father is in this position, double vaccinated and tested negative for antibodies. Current data shows extremely low efficacy and antibody production in immunocompromised people.
    - TulliusCicero 5y ago
      > Many people who are double vaccinated are testing positive for COVID and therefore capable of spreading it Yes, but the fact that symptoms tend to be much weaker in the vaccinated likely means it's less likely to spread from them. Currently, the problem is that we have those breakthrough cases, plus also the unvaccinated still spreading the disease. That said, it's true that the new delta variant may mean we need further boosters.
      - deanclatworthy 5y ago
        As mentioned in the parent comment I made, it's a game of odds. It's one thing wearing a mask at the supermarket and passing someone with covid. But if I go to the office, pick up COVID, and I live in the same home as someone who is immunocompromised, they don't stand a chance. This is the reality for many millions of families around the world.
- himinlomax 5y ago
  So people who have health concerns should be penalized to accommodate people who are scared of needles?
  - dsnr 5y ago
    Just FYI, infected vaccinated people have same levels of virus as unvaccinated people, and transmit the virus at the same rate. Best way to “stay away from unvaccinated people” is to just get yourself vaccinated and call it a day. If someone is immunocompromised they are not safe near vaccinated people either. https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-fully-vaccinated-people-can-spread-delta-variant-2021-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-fully-vaccinated-people-...
    - himinlomax 5y ago
      Assuming this is correct, that would be vaccinated people who get infected, and they are 10 times less likely to get infected in the first place. Antivax arguments are so terrible.
      - dsnr 5y ago
        Nothing that I said is “antivax”. You should try to direct your frustrations somewhere else when you’re looking to rationalize your own decisions.
  - Bryan22 5y ago
    So people who don't want to take the vaccine until it has been fully approved by the FDA should be penalized to accommodate people who neglect their health?
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  So... someone with a autoimmune disorder who is on a drug that suppresses their immune system shouldn't be in the office - even if they feel decent daily and definitely wouldn't qualify for disability? (These sorts of medicines keep folks as healthy and mobile as possible, which is why diseases like MS aren't the sentence they used to be, even if they are still serious). Diabetes can make you much more likely to have issues with infection too. Should it cause you to stay home? How are you going to eat and pay utilities?
throwaway_12_12 5y ago
There was a time in history, where people were not feeling safe around certain group of other people. These other people ended up in gas chambers because of mass hysteria around accusations made towards them by officials and mass media. I fear this is where we are heading now, as a society who should be learning on horrible lessons from our history.
A_non_e-moose 5y ago
It's not an employer's job to enforce that though. If anything, it should come from the government. What's next in this scope creep? Your local grocery forces you to vaccinate if you want any food?

makomk 5y ago

Honestly, anyone who's genuinely at risk enough that they can't risk being exposed despite being vaccinated - as opposed to the people who were convinced they are because of stupid media culture war bullshit - probably shouldn't be working in an office, because at that point they're going to be at reasonably comparable risk from the common cold. Seriously. The other four endemic human coronaviruses, for example, are very far from a walk in the park for at-risk people that manage to catch them; it's just that most people with working immune systems have some level of immunity that protects them from the worst effects.

deanclatworthy 5y ago
As I mentioned in my comment, many folks have families. We are not dealing with individuals when it comes to a pandemic. We are dealing with contagion amongst bubbles of people. Many people have vulnerable people in their bubbles at home and need to make a living.
- joshuahughes 5y ago
  But how is this different from previously? Flu, common cold, various other viruses... all present a similar threat to that from covid and spread as easily. What has changed with covid to create so much additional fear and the subsequent authoritarian responses? Any decent person would just keep away from the office if they were ill. What's changed that now a particular course of action has to be mandated with the threat of job-loss as the alternative? Seems to me that those who are concerned about unfairness for one group are simply transferring that unfairness to another group.
  - deanclatworthy 5y ago
    > But how is this different from previously? Flu, common cold, various other viruses... all present a similar threat to that from covid and spread as easily. Because covid is more transmissible [1], more dangerous, has far longer lasting effects (long-covid), and because vaccines for non-covid viruses are generally more effective to _immunocompromised people_ as we've had longer to deal with them. Furthermore, flu has been around for generations. We've all probably had some variant of it in our lives, and have some level of immunity. Covid is entirely new. It's far easier to rip through the population and get into the proximity of vulnerable people than flu. > Any decent person would just keep away from the office if they were ill. Sure. Except you don't know you're ill. A majority of people will be asymptomatic and spreading it without knowing. This is what is happening in the UK right now.
    - VBprogrammer 5y ago
      I'm personally feeling pretty uncomfortable with comparisons to flu and the cold today. One of the guys on my team has just got out of hospital, he is in his mid-20s with no underlying conditions. Yet when be caught Covid he ended up in hospital on oxygen, was admitted to ICU, there was talk of him having to be intubated before he started to recover. That doesn't sound like a sniffly nose or a bad case of the runs to me. I know it's only an anecdote, a single data point, but it means a lot more to me.
  - himinlomax 5y ago
    Why is it there is no lock down for the flu? Answer: it's not the same disease.
TulliusCicero 5y ago
So immunocompromised people shouldn't be around other humans, because anti-vaxxers are too selfish or anti-science to get vaccinated? If everyone got vaccinated, the pandemic would likely be over or close to over in rich countries.
- deanclatworthy 5y ago
  This is not the case. Many people who are double vaccinated are testing positive for COVID and therefore capable of spreading it: https://archive.is/sYyMf https://archive.is/sYyMf Look at the data from the UK. The pandemic is far from over there, although hospitalisations are far far lower than previous peaks. There is a non-significant amount of immunocompromised people in the UK (1million+). Maybe the data we are seeing is because the immunocompromised people who take risks all ended up in hospital and died. Maybe, what you are left with is a huge number of people scared shitless at home, hiding, lonely, scared in a country where everyone is being told everything is fine. My father is in this position, double vaccinated and tested negative for antibodies. Current data shows extremely low efficacy and antibody production in immunocompromised people.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    > Many people who are double vaccinated are testing positive for COVID and therefore capable of spreading it Yes, but the fact that symptoms tend to be much weaker in the vaccinated likely means it's less likely to spread from them. Currently, the problem is that we have those breakthrough cases, plus also the unvaccinated still spreading the disease. That said, it's true that the new delta variant may mean we need further boosters.
    - deanclatworthy 5y ago
      As mentioned in the parent comment I made, it's a game of odds. It's one thing wearing a mask at the supermarket and passing someone with covid. But if I go to the office, pick up COVID, and I live in the same home as someone who is immunocompromised, they don't stand a chance. This is the reality for many millions of families around the world.
himinlomax 5y ago
So people who have health concerns should be penalized to accommodate people who are scared of needles?
- dsnr 5y ago
  Just FYI, infected vaccinated people have same levels of virus as unvaccinated people, and transmit the virus at the same rate. Best way to “stay away from unvaccinated people” is to just get yourself vaccinated and call it a day. If someone is immunocompromised they are not safe near vaccinated people either. https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-fully-vaccinated-people-can-spread-delta-variant-2021-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-fully-vaccinated-people-...
  - himinlomax 5y ago
    Assuming this is correct, that would be vaccinated people who get infected, and they are 10 times less likely to get infected in the first place. Antivax arguments are so terrible.
    - dsnr 5y ago
      Nothing that I said is “antivax”. You should try to direct your frustrations somewhere else when you’re looking to rationalize your own decisions.
- Bryan22 5y ago
  So people who don't want to take the vaccine until it has been fully approved by the FDA should be penalized to accommodate people who neglect their health?
Broken_Hippo 5y ago
So... someone with a autoimmune disorder who is on a drug that suppresses their immune system shouldn't be in the office - even if they feel decent daily and definitely wouldn't qualify for disability? (These sorts of medicines keep folks as healthy and mobile as possible, which is why diseases like MS aren't the sentence they used to be, even if they are still serious). Diabetes can make you much more likely to have issues with infection too. Should it cause you to stay home? How are you going to eat and pay utilities?

throwaway_12_12 5y ago

There was a time in history, where people were not feeling safe around certain group of other people. These other people ended up in gas chambers because of mass hysteria around accusations made towards them by officials and mass media. I fear this is where we are heading now, as a society who should be learning on horrible lessons from our history.

A_non_e-moose 5y ago

It's not an employer's job to enforce that though. If anything, it should come from the government. What's next in this scope creep? Your local grocery forces you to vaccinate if you want any food?