5 ms·

Unions work where labor is interchangeable. That is definitely not the case in game industry, where people are highly specialized and super creative.

seanhunter 5y ago
There are unions in the film industry for example which seems extremely comparable.
- garmaine 5y ago
  Not for the creative roles. Maybe you're thinking of guilds? They're both forms of collective representation, but quite different on the ground.
  - seanhunter 5y ago
    They certainly are a union and describe themselves as such. For example, from https://www.wga.org/the-guild/about-us/guide-to-the-guild https://www.wga.org/the-guild/about-us/guide-to-the-guild "We are the Writers Guild of America West (WGAW), a labor union composed of the thousands of writers who write the content for television shows, movies, news programs, documentaries, animation, and Internet and mobile phones (new media) that keep audiences constantly entertained and informed. "
    - garmaine 5y ago
      I'm sure they do describe themselves as a union. Most non-insiders don't know the difference between the two, and probably many guild members don't either. But legally speaking, a guild is an organization for collective bargaining of independent contractors, while a union is for employees. If you are a television producer hiring a writer, you don't go to the WGA. You just interview a bunch of writers, select the one you want, and offer them the job. Like you would any other job, really, except that if the writer is a member of the guild then the terms of employment must meet some certain standards, with rules about crediting and overtime, etc. But so long as you adhere to the guild's rules, it's like hiring any other independent contractor. But if you're a ship captain wanting to offload cargo, you go to the longshoreman's union and as for N day workers. You don't pick who, and you don't negotiate rates other than specifying (and paying for) the desired experience level. You ask for N longshoremen, and you get N warm bodies and the bill. To the point of this conversation, a guild makes more sense in a creative project where the skill and art of the worker matters to the end result. If you're producing a TV comedy, you really need to make sure you employ the correct writers. Likewise for game designers.
      - seanhunter 5y ago
        If they themselves describe themselves as a union it seems strange not to take that at face value. That being said, even if you don't accept that, there are unions (not guilds) for independent contractors in the creative fields for example in the UK the musicians' union and Equity (the actors' union). If you are hiring musicians or actors in the UK you will for sure be hiring the specific people you want and they will very likely be members of the union. Your example about hiring union workers may be how it works in the US but is not the case in other countries - you would hire them just like any other independent contractor or employee. Source: I have been a member of both creative and non-creative unions in my career. I've been in the musicians' union and my wife and many friends are members of the ISM (another union for musicians with more traction in the classical music world) and I have also been a member of a more conventional union (the GMB or "General Municipal and Boilermakers' union") believe it or not. In no case have I ever been hired on the basis of a process like you describe.
pjmlp 5y ago
Apparently it works in Europe, go figure.
- HowTheStoryEnds 5y ago
  As a european(Belgian) I can only anecdotally tell you: no, it doesn't. They're the same instrument of collusion with the employer to keep wages down for the many in exchange for benefits of the upper few while also serving as the counterweight that keeps both the incompetent and the malicious firmly fixed in place. To put it in current days' terms: they're a major source of toxicity.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Well it works in Portugal and Germany from my point of view. I take my 40h week, health insurance, vacations anywhere I feel like, paid overtime, over some magical wage in exchange for less benefits that exploit working class. Anyone that feels it isn't their thing is free to make their own business, free of union agreements and see how they manage for themselves in the market.
    - garmaine 5y ago
      > Anyone that feels it isn't their thing is free to make their own business, free of union agreements and see how they manage for themselves in the market. In the United States this is not true. In many states once the union is established in an industry, it becomes illegal to operate a new business without the union. We have bad union laws.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        It is sad that one of the countries where the union movement was born out of the abuse from companies during the industrial age revolution, a subject that Charlie Chaplin even joked about, has turned into an union hate country.
        5y ago
ryathal 5y ago
The vast majority of developers on modern games are interchangeable peons that are essentially working high paying gigs as they get laid off when the game ships.

seanhunter 5y ago

There are unions in the film industry for example which seems extremely comparable.

garmaine 5y ago
Not for the creative roles. Maybe you're thinking of guilds? They're both forms of collective representation, but quite different on the ground.
- seanhunter 5y ago
  They certainly are a union and describe themselves as such. For example, from https://www.wga.org/the-guild/about-us/guide-to-the-guild https://www.wga.org/the-guild/about-us/guide-to-the-guild "We are the Writers Guild of America West (WGAW), a labor union composed of the thousands of writers who write the content for television shows, movies, news programs, documentaries, animation, and Internet and mobile phones (new media) that keep audiences constantly entertained and informed. "
  - garmaine 5y ago
    I'm sure they do describe themselves as a union. Most non-insiders don't know the difference between the two, and probably many guild members don't either. But legally speaking, a guild is an organization for collective bargaining of independent contractors, while a union is for employees. If you are a television producer hiring a writer, you don't go to the WGA. You just interview a bunch of writers, select the one you want, and offer them the job. Like you would any other job, really, except that if the writer is a member of the guild then the terms of employment must meet some certain standards, with rules about crediting and overtime, etc. But so long as you adhere to the guild's rules, it's like hiring any other independent contractor. But if you're a ship captain wanting to offload cargo, you go to the longshoreman's union and as for N day workers. You don't pick who, and you don't negotiate rates other than specifying (and paying for) the desired experience level. You ask for N longshoremen, and you get N warm bodies and the bill. To the point of this conversation, a guild makes more sense in a creative project where the skill and art of the worker matters to the end result. If you're producing a TV comedy, you really need to make sure you employ the correct writers. Likewise for game designers.
    - seanhunter 5y ago
      If they themselves describe themselves as a union it seems strange not to take that at face value. That being said, even if you don't accept that, there are unions (not guilds) for independent contractors in the creative fields for example in the UK the musicians' union and Equity (the actors' union). If you are hiring musicians or actors in the UK you will for sure be hiring the specific people you want and they will very likely be members of the union. Your example about hiring union workers may be how it works in the US but is not the case in other countries - you would hire them just like any other independent contractor or employee. Source: I have been a member of both creative and non-creative unions in my career. I've been in the musicians' union and my wife and many friends are members of the ISM (another union for musicians with more traction in the classical music world) and I have also been a member of a more conventional union (the GMB or "General Municipal and Boilermakers' union") believe it or not. In no case have I ever been hired on the basis of a process like you describe.

pjmlp 5y ago

Apparently it works in Europe, go figure.

HowTheStoryEnds 5y ago
As a european(Belgian) I can only anecdotally tell you: no, it doesn't. They're the same instrument of collusion with the employer to keep wages down for the many in exchange for benefits of the upper few while also serving as the counterweight that keeps both the incompetent and the malicious firmly fixed in place. To put it in current days' terms: they're a major source of toxicity.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Well it works in Portugal and Germany from my point of view. I take my 40h week, health insurance, vacations anywhere I feel like, paid overtime, over some magical wage in exchange for less benefits that exploit working class. Anyone that feels it isn't their thing is free to make their own business, free of union agreements and see how they manage for themselves in the market.
  - garmaine 5y ago
    > Anyone that feels it isn't their thing is free to make their own business, free of union agreements and see how they manage for themselves in the market. In the United States this is not true. In many states once the union is established in an industry, it becomes illegal to operate a new business without the union. We have bad union laws.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      It is sad that one of the countries where the union movement was born out of the abuse from companies during the industrial age revolution, a subject that Charlie Chaplin even joked about, has turned into an union hate country.
      - 5y ago

ryathal 5y ago

The vast majority of developers on modern games are interchangeable peons that are essentially working high paying gigs as they get laid off when the game ships.